Having visited Nigeria more than once for personal reasons, I would encourage you not to damn the country based on experiences in Lagos alone. Even Nigerians try to avoid traveling there.
Not that I’d choose to travel in Nigeria alone as a tourist, but going to visit family and friends I’ve had a wonderful, perspective changing time. Plus, a lot (though certainly not nearly enough) has changed in the ten years since 1994.
Hey Boss…I can appreciate the rolleyes, but if you would please tell me exactly what it is you’re calling BS about. Is that deb said, she “knows a few who believe that the US is spreading AIDS thru polio vacine.”
OR is it that, “I recall several years ago mid to late 80’s there was a (Red Cross IIRC) documentary done showing vaccines/shots being given to the children in Africa.”
Are you saying that she doesn’t know anyone who believes this?
OR
Are you simply calling me a liar as to what I remember?
I can’t speak for deb, but you and I have been in enough threads that you should know that I am not a fucking liar.
My company left about thirty minutes ago and I have to go to the store right now.
But I promise you that I will attempt to find some record of the documentary of which I speak. Whether I find a cite or not, I know what I saw, and I also know that matters not in an objective debate.
Surely you are not calling BS on the fact that the US government policy towards Native Americans was an act of genocide.
If I have misinterpreted your comment, please explain. Thanks t-keela
I’ll be back ASAP 
I think that in your case Bosda was referring to this:
Maybe he was just reacting to the use of “genocide” as a verb. :rolleyes:
My BS call is based on the total lack of evidence that backs up the proposition: that the US/The West is killing/sterilizing/giving bad hair days to Muslims/Blacks/3rd Worlders/Puppies/Martians/Whatever with tainted vaccines.
Did you read my cites? Do you understand that this is an ongoing debate?
Do you realize that as for this debate I am a neutral person who has not taken sides because all of the data is not in? (And probably won’t ever all be in)
Do you not realize all I was doing was showing that there are intelligent people in this country who believe that the US gov’t has systematically committed genocide? And that they believe that the US Gov’t has in the past sent AIDS to African countries via Polia vaccine?
So you can call BS on what I have said, but it won’t change the fact that there are those who believe it.
I didn’t like it much either, but it’s a gamble to preview these days. So I just submitted and figured I’d take my chances. I sure didn’t figure on getting pitted over my sentence structure.
Perhaps it was my naivete’ in use of the phrase, “we’re the good guys!”
So…I see Bos has responded and he has said.
I guess I missed that part of my post. Where exactly did I make this proposal?
OR did you infer that from this:
When I was a kid, we all had to get our shots. I wasn’t uncommon for the “free” clinics to use a hypodermic very similar to the one I described. I guess you had to be there. If AIDS was spread in the beginning because of this practice I wouldn’t be surprised. BUT I never made that assertion. As far as the sarcasm goes…take it anyway you want to, but you can’t deny the possibility.
Sorry to ruffle your feathers.
I can’t believe none of you remember the fundraiser (I think it might have been UNICEF) A very a big thing in about '85-86. Had info-commercials etc. they were going to innoculate the children of Africa who were dying by the millions. By '88 they were bragging that over half the population had received shots for (I don’t recall all the diseases/etc). They played a videotape of hundreds of children lined up to get their shots. One would walk up and they’d inject the serum/vaccine…and another would step up and “click” and so on. I remember the rotating needle from when I was in school. They weren’t aware or concerned about contaminated blood being transferred from one patient to another. Everyone had been tested for TB and Hepa viruses, so they just used the old technology.
Call BS on that if you want to. I remember one year I got my shots with my brothers on the same day and they didn’t change the needle. I know because MOM asked them about it and they explained it to her that way (a rotating needle that is good for several shots). When Dad joined the military in the forties they gave all the guys coming in shots with that same old hypo. He got 47 shots for different things and they didn’t change needles everytime for every person. Believe it or NOT.
In the mid 80’s, how AIDS was spread was not a certainty. I remember when folks believed that only gay men could get it. No one really knew that contaminated needles was a major cause for concern. I saw lots of people I knew die from AIDS as a result of sharing needles. (not me buddy…I never could do a fucking needle, no way in hell)
Anyway, say/believe what you will…lotsa folks died as a result of needle contamination and if you think that’s BS then there’s probably no cite I could find to convince you otherwise.
http://www.essentialdrugs.org/edrug/archive/200401/msg00038.php
A memo via the World Health Organization, dated Jan. 20, 2004.
The WHO admit reusable syringes is a problem.
http://www.bd.com/immunization/about/
A memo via BD Medical Supplies
The suppliers warn the medical community.
http://www.icasafrica.org/facts.html
Some sub-Sahara countries reported 70% of it’s population has AIDS. That’s over 30 MILLION people in Africa that have HIV. I’ll say that again there are over 30,000,000 people with AIDS in Africa that’s 3/4ths of the world’s total cases.
See the above link for more appalling figures regarding the PEOPLE of an entire continent.
They also held a conference to instruct health care workers how to NOT SPREAD the disease through unsafe innoculations.
Now Bosda This is an example of todays modern health care providers. Do I really need to go back fifteen years and show you the horrific conditions in which innoculations were given?
BTW There are numerous medical suppliers advertizing on the web to ship inexpensive reusable syringes to third world countries. AND the good old rotating hypo is still being used. One site said it was good for up to ten shots per needle (and there may be ten needles per clip) others even more. I assume if ten, why not 12 or 15? more. Hell why change it at all as long as it’s doing the job.
I also remember when my little brother got his shot he went last. The nurse said the needle might be getting dull but she thought it would do one more. She bent the damned needle in his arm.
This is not good.
Please excuse this misquote from the previous post.
Some sub-Sahara countries reported 70% of it’s population has AIDS.
It should have read.
Sorry about the incorrect wording before. I knew I should’ve just copied the damned stat. It should’ve been "some sub-Saharan countries (Zimbabwe for example) report nearly 40% of it’s population has HIV.
How horrible. I’m facing the apparent fact that within my lifetime a large portion of the world population will die.
Yes, I realize that a large portion of humanity will die in my lifetime. We will all die eventually. But in this case the powers that be seem to be either negligently or purposefully contributing to the deaths of MILLIONS of innocent people.
Okay Bosda This is it…call BS on me or take it back.
http://www.helsinki-hs.net/news.asp?id=20001017IE1
me: The use of a multishot system (rotating needle) has been in use for the past 30 years. They have decided to go to a jet (no needle) injection multishot system in recent years.
me: The fact is they don’t know how many cases are due to immunization. How many cases VIA sex would not have occurred had they not been exposed to HIV at the clinic?
http://www.hcvets.com/data/transmission_methods/jet_injection.htm
summary: Military immunization method declared unsafe. Multi-shot injection systems capable of transporting blood borne viruses.
http://www.nhrc.navy.mil/geis/sites/nepmu.htm
Navy Environmental and Preventive Medicine Unit No. 7
Their list of services includes the following:
me: The two aforementioned cites appear to be in conflict with each other wouldn’t you say?
We’ve decided that jet_injection systems are unsafe and WE will no longer use them on our people. BUT we can loan them to YOU and use them on yours.
http://www.who.int/features/2004/polio/en/
me: An appeal by the WHO for the immunization of 15 million children in Africa. This link was provided by the Naval Health and Research Center. They are going to take up the cause and assist in this cause. They have an ample supply of jet injectors that clinics in the area can use. The problem is that there aren’t enough qualified medical personnel available. So, a brief training session will be provided for volunteers in the safe usage of multishot systems. Good idea, let them contaminate themselves. They got the training, they had the equipment and the medicine.
http://www.google.com/u/who?q=jet+injector&sa=OK&sitesearch=who.int&domains=who.int
me: Several verifications that the WHO (world health organization) has approved use of jet injectors in mass immunization programs. They admitted the reusable needle hypoderms were dangerous and had contributed to the spread of diseases in Africa. So, now a needle-less system will be used.
The same system the US military abandoned because it was unsafe.
Sorry Bosda I don’t know what else to say. Maybe this bit of evidence will retract some of the BS that got called my way.
regards to all, t-keela
First, one of your links doesn’t work.
[ol]
[li]I got my polio & smallpox vaccinations as a child with this system. I haven’t contracted some fatal condition. So the two don’t always go hand-in-hand.[/li][li]Military units giving away surplus or decommissioned equipment to charitable or foreign aid projects is standard practice, not a plot.[/li][li]Jet injectors were developed & distrubuted before anybody even dreamt of something like AIDS[/li][li]Your original contention was that A) disease was being deliberately spread by the West to kill people, and B) This was being done by tainted vaccine. You cites support neither of these positions.[/li][li]You have yet to describe any possible motive for these alledged campaigns of mass extermination.[/li][li]You have yet to establish how the current UN Polio efforts connect to the US or the West. The effort is multinational.[/li][li]You have yet to show that these were the only, or even the primary vaccination equipment available. If there were far more examples of other systems, your argument falls apart.[/li][li]Were warnings about possible risks given to the various agencies in Africa that used these systems? At the time or later? Were they disregarded on the African end?[/li][/ol]
In the end, yeah, I call BS on your argument. You have not supported your position. You come off like a total paranoid, & that comes from a guy who puts up posts in HUGE typefonts about disease outbreaks in distant parts of the world.
Switch to decaf, please. :rolleyes:
First off Bosda I think you have me confused with the OP of this thread. I never said or even thought this quote you are attributing to me.
“Your original contention was that A) disease was being deliberately spread by the West to kill people, and B) This was being done by tainted vaccine. You cites support neither of these positions.”
I never claimed anything regarding tainted vaccines. I did say that unsterile hypodermics have added to the spread of disease in Africa.
You posted:
Motives…since I never claimed intent what motive are you referring to. I provided plenty of evidence that the contamination was due to ignorance and/or carelessness.
Any comment made about PAST genocides by the US government were exactly that, in the past.
When did I bring up polio? I was talking about the spread of AIDS in the 1980’s which the WHO admits they were responsible for millions of cases as a result of unsafe practices.
Whether injection systems were the primary vaccination equipment is irrelevant.
to this comment: “If there were far more examples of other systems, your argument falls apart.”
Bullshit, I have documented evidence from several reputable sources and admissions from the WHO testifying to the fact that multishot and reusable syringes are unsafe and are directly responsible for part of the problem.
BTW I never claimed that immunization was a bad thing. I think the fact that we’ve slowed down immunizing folks is bad. What is a problem, or was in the 80’s (as per my original statement) is the carelessness in which mass immunization occurred.
Now if you are going to continue to misquote my statements and pretend that my cites aren’t evidence in support of my actual claims, then perhaps you should start at the beginning of this thread and keep up with who said what and try to keep things in their context and original intent.
I can provide plenty of additional cites if need be, but some folks simple can’t admit when they are wrong. So why bother?
and I forgot this little tidbit from you.
"In the end, yeah, I call BS on your argument. You have not supported your position.
You come off like a total paranoid, & that comes from a guy who puts up posts in HUGE typefonts about disease outbreaks in distant parts of the world. "
WTF? Like I said, my argument is solid. In the 1980’s mass immunization programs helped to spread contagious diseases. That is undeniable by anyone with half a brain and able to read. sheesh…and you wanna talk about somebody being paranoid.
Sorry, I forgot to ask. Which link? I’ll be glad to repost it and many more if need be.
I’m trying to keep it cool and talk this out. Perhaps we simply have had a failure to communicate. So, where did I mislead you or how did you misinterpret my position in this? Surely a couple of obviously sarcastic remarks didn’t whoosh by you.
Please don’t tell me this is the source of your contempt. 
Did I swish one past ya or what?
OK, I misread your intentions here.
The Navy link didn’t work when I clicked on it.
BTW–this thread grew out of a Polio vaccination program that Muslim clerics claimed were poisoned by the West to kill/sterilize Muslims, & refused to permit the vaccinations to go on.
http://www.nhrc.navy.mil/geis/sites/nepmu2.htm
That one should work.
BTW Here’s a copy of part of the memo ordering the suspension of further use of multi shot injectors.
http://usamma.detrick.army.mil/ftp/mmqc_messages/Q971169.txt
SUBJ: MMQC-97-1169
AUTOMATIC JET HYPODERMIC INJECTION UNITS/WITHDRAWAL (DPSC 970147)
THIS IS A FOUR-PART MSG
PART ONE IS FOR ALL ADDRESSEES
Bosda I could go on…there are records showing the “new” injectors aren’t safe either. What it amounts to is how many deaths by accidental transfer are acceptable when compared to the number of deaths if immunizations were stopped. The threat of an outbreak of polio, smallpox, etc. apparently is the greater concern, I agree.
Anyway I think we’re back on track.
Yeah, I read that. I was trying to show a reason for this fear of immunizations.
It was an attempt to look at things from their side of the story. Not that I agree with the intentional genocide VIA polio vaccinations, I don’t.
However, [take a breath] being on the receiving end of a system that admits being responsible for the accidental spread of HIV through immunizations. I can certainly understand how some alarmists might come up with such an idea. Especially considering the current situation.
In addition, while my off-handed remark about the relation between the Bushes, Nazisism and genocide was sarcastic. I am reasonably sure there are many people who feel this is true.
I wonder how many times has something similar to this actually taken place?