So we were friends at one point. You asked how the birth went. Fair enough, I guess. I tell you it’s a long story, but you ask what’s up. I decline but you ask again.
When you find out that, less than two months ago, I held my own flesh and blood, while he drew his last breaths, did you care? What the fuck does one life mean to you? Did you hear me when I talked about the pain? What were you thinking about when I described the pain of losing your only child?
You fucking started the shit. So why in this fucking world do you think that you need to prove a point about right to life at this stage?
Abortion isn’t an easy choice. Couldn’t be. But I truly do not know if it is good or not. However, if someone were to know that their child were to only life for less than six hours, I could not judge them if they bailed early. When you see children being abused, is it better that they were or not born?
I don’t know these answers, but why the fuck do you choose this moment to prove your fucking beliefs in the world? Why lecture the father of a child who was born with no brain on the morality of life? This was someone who was prepared to love whatever was given, and if I’m not going to condem someone else in the same circumstance who had the chance to make a different decision, then why the fuck keep it up?
You and everyone else who lives in a black and white world, keep it to your own fucking self.
It sounds horrible all right, but what did she say? ‘See now you know abortion is wrong’ or something like that? What a fucking harpy.
Just to note – I know you didn’t mean any harm, but there are many adult survivors of abuse who are glad to be alive. That’s not a very strong pro-choice argument, to me. Not that arguments make any difference when you’re dealing with someone as shockingly heartless as this “friend” of yours.
I’m as pro-life as anyone, but I also try to be polite. Pressing for a story someone is hesitant to tell would be a no-go, as well as reflecting on the political aspect of a personal story.
I might reflect **to myself ** that you (and others I have heard of) experienced so much love by bringing your child to term but that’s about it.
After a while, you learn to ignore these people. Granted, it ain’t easy. At all. The alternative is to really start to hate them, which would be wrong. You have my deepest sympathies. Try not to let the motherfuckers make you hate too much. Again, it’s a tall order, but the alternative is worse.
For the record, we were told of the problems long after abortion was an option. Had we known earlier? Fuck if I know. However, after having gone through what we did, I could never condemn anyone who did differently had they had a choice.
What I pit are these motherfuckers who use someone’s sorrow to prove their own fucking point. You hold your son while he draws his last breath. You make decisions with your own fucking blood and flesh, and them come and tell me what I did was right or wrong.
Don’t tell me the evils of partial birth abortions, not to this father of a son he never played catch with. Are you looking for a friend here? We still have the few ashes of his flesh here. Bury your own goddamn child and then try to sign me up.
The world is not fucking black and white. Carrying a child for 8 months only to have him die within a half a dozen hours is not the poster child for your fuckin’ cause. We didn’t have the choice, but I will not fucking condemn anyone who does have a choice and elects not to take the child full term.
Right or left, anyone who hears a story of sorrow and elects to push their own agenta should . . . . shit, even the pit is too tame for what I feel about this slime tonight.
Yeah, well, like I said, it ain’t easy to ignore. I understand 100% what you’re talking about. Actually, believe it or not, having the choice isn’t much better, emotionally, but sometimes there are simply hard-headed practical concerns that make up the difference. It’s about the biggest bitch ever, no matter what you do, and I fully understand your anger and sense of disgust. I share it, quite completely. Now may not be the time for resignaton, so I just say as someone who has maybe had more time to become resigned, these people just not worth the long-term anger.
Two of my sisters in law had to go through that and, having watched their pain, I have to work hard not to beat the “no partial birth abortions” crowd to a bloody pulp. I cannot feel your pain, brother, but I can understand it.
[QUOTE=rayh]
My guess would be something along the lines of - if you’d had him aborted you wouldn’t have had those few hours with him.QUOTE]And you know, this might be true for some poeple. “Better to have loved and lost, etc…” or however it was phrased. I disagree, emotional loss fucking sucks and I, for one, will avoid it whenever possible.
I find it hypocritical that the same people who espouse abstaining from pleasures of the flesh in favor of some declared spiritual reward later are the same ones that can say that a moment of joy is worth a lifetime of anguish and guilt. Which is it dipshits?
TP, I got nothing to give you. I hope your son’s survivors can heal quickly. And I secretly wish all kinds of bad things on people who live in a black/white world.
I’ll explain a little more. I was at a bar and happen on a once close friend and he asked how the birth went.
I hadn’t seen him forever; we drifted apart because I don’t agree with his ultraconservative beliefs. Not that he has these beliefs, but that he insists on arguing them constantly.
So then he launches into a harangue on why abortion should never be an option. Why the fuck he brings that out of left field I have no idea, but suddenly he kicks into full tilt. Abortion is wrong; no, in his world it is not wrong, it’s evil. And anyone who doesn’t agree is aiding and abetting the enemy.
Ian’s birth was the most wonderful event in all 45 years of my existence while his death was the most painful experience of this same life. But this was my experience, deeply personal and too recent for detachment.
Having lived through this, and especially because I so recently lived through this, I find myself unable to tell others what choices to make. The balance between joy without bounds and blinding pain, and of sorrow so deep and love so great. Those that face such a decision have enough difficulties without spews of mindless nonsense coming from the mouths of the clueless.
Listen asshole. No matter how much you want the world to be black and white. It ain’t. I respect that others will disagree with me. We all have our own beliefs and well we should. It’s when you so loudly preach your brand of morality, that you should remember who you share the pulpit with.
My friend, I feel your pain.
I, too, held my newly born child in My arms as she drew her final breath.
It’s hard enough dealing with the knuckleheads who seem to say the wrong things withouit having to deal with the total bufoons who go out of their way to tread upon your (already broken) heart with their tirades.
Of course, we let it slide and vent later… because it’s the civil thing to do.
And, Sir, I’m most sorry that we have this in common.
oh, and as for your ‘friend’…
/ricky vaughan/
“You want me to drag him outside? Beat the shit outta him?”
/ricky vaughan/
I’m so sorry for your loss. I couldn’t even read the entire OP you linked to. Some people are just soul-less idiots. I don’t understand what possible connection she could have thought there was between your case and the issue of abortion.
I’m sorry to hear that you’ve dealt with that sort of hurtful behavior on top of your grief.
I definitely agree that it was inappropriate to bring up abortion (OR, for that matter, any politically dvisivise and potentially upsetting topic) at a time like that.
I think this is not so much about a particular stance on abortion as it is about the issue of people being clueless about how to respond to grief. I know an abortion advocate who used to think it was appropriate to tell women who had miscarriages that it wasn’t a big deal because the woman could just have another pregnancy later on to make up for it (for anyone out there who may not realize it, that kind of remark often comes across as hurtful to people who are grieving about a miscarriage).
I think men in particular aren’t socialized on the right or wrong things to say in response to sadness or grief.
I remember when my dad was in the hospital after having his leg amputated, his brother who came to visit thought it would be appropriate to bring up a news story about some kid who had an amputation but could still play ball. My dad ended up telling him to just go home.
I’ve noticed among my male friends that some of them are prone to either saying nothing at all, or trying to change the subject if I talk to them about something personal and painful (like, for example, my dad’s illnesses and death).
I’d speculate that this guy probably was feeling uncomfortable and unsure about how to respond to your sadness, so he thought it would be a good idea to try to steer the conversation to a topic where he feels more confident about what to say (since in his view, the answer on the abortion question is clear-cut). I’m sure that he didn’t intend to be hurtful.
Forgive me if I can’t seem to whip up any sympathy for the sorry bastard who dragged his slimey agenda over the OP’s wounds. I highly doubt he was clueless or that he meant well. IMO, he wanted to distance himself from this tragedy and did it by politicizing it. He may well be clueless as to social skills, but since when is that an excuse? Do you date a socially clueless guy a second time, even if he caused you grave offense on the first date? Does the inept interviewee get the job?
Why make excuses for this moron? How does that make this better or help TP feel better? I don’t get it.
I have not experienced what the OP did, but when my sister(s) died–I got to see just how many assholes there are in the world. You don’t know what to say? Don’t say anything. This situation makes you uncomfortable?-- you with all your siblings and family intact? Take 10 seconds and think about the ones who have lost their loved ones. Your discomfort is less than nothing to theirs. If you are truly at a loss as to how to handle this: say I’m sorry. And then shut up. And stay shut.
Jesus-we’ve all put our foot (feet?) in our mouths at one point or another in times like this-but this guy went way over the top. This is inexcusable.
Move on and away from dicks like this, TP. Like Loopy said, they are not worth the anger and energy.
The guy was an idiot for bringing it up. However, I choose to believe it was an inexcusably stupid gaffe. It sounds to me as if he assumed that **TokyoPlayer **was similarly anti-abortion because they “chose” to bring their unviable child to term. He was trying to find safe common ground for a not-personal discussion, and thought (for some odd reason) that that was a safe topic. It’s the kind of mistake I might make, and feel horribly dreadful about later. But if someone doesn’t have an abortion in such extreme circumstances, I might assume they were against abortion politically. I’d be wrong to make such an assumption, of course, for many reasons, but I can see where it might have come from a not-evil place.
Or the guy could be a Grade A Fuckwit. I don’t really know. But my faith in humanity is only possible by assuming mistakes, rather than maliciousness.
“Making excuses” or speculating on the man’s motives does no harm, as far as I can see, and may present **TokyoPlayer **with an alternative view that doesn’t make him hate his friend right now. I know I’d rather think of my friend as a social bafoon who screwed up than an evil bastard. YMMV.
The fact is, the guy said stuff. You don’t know why, I don’t know why, **TokyoPlayer **doesn’t know why - heck, the guy himself may not know why. So any interpretation anyone has is a story. Pick the story with the moral that gets you through the day. Only **TokyoPlayer **has to decide whether or not to hang out with the guy again.