Now I’m trying to figure out how you would do that without looking. “Am I pointing the gun at you? How about now?”
I assume that an image of a naked Barney Frank penile-flogging Boehner’s orange face is okay though?
Now that’s hot!
What’s to misunderstand? Are you saying that my math isn’t correct? Because I assure you that [taxes]/[earnings] = .32 and [take home pay]/[pretax pay] = .68. Is there something I’m missing, or is there something you’re missing? Because I thought I was pretty clear.
And these are all examples of things that aren’t actually said anywhere but Stormfront and FreeRepublic. “Obama is the antichrist”? When was the last time you heard that line trotted out in any serious fashion?
You’re god damned right I don’t. And neither does anyone else. That’s why this election came out the way it did. People are sick of being forced to help other people when they’re barely making it on their own. Roads? That’s fine, I use roads. Hospitals? That’s cool, I need those too. Firefighters? Well, I haven’t availed their services ever before, but I could if I ever needed to. Unemployment insurance? That’s fine. Only people that pay into it can reap its benefits, and the more you pay in, the more you get out. That’s fair.
Health care insurance? Wait a minute…I already have insurance. You want me to pay for that deadbeat’s insurance too? WHY?! Because he doesn’t have any? How the fuck is that my problem?! OK, so let me get this straight…I have to pay into this system, but that guy doesn’t…is that right? Well, then, Mr President, you can go fuck yourself.
And THAT is why you lost this election. It’s because liberals refuse to recognize that transfer payments are evil.
Kinda like how liberals think that American soldiers in Iraq jump naked into pools of oil, huh? How we pour it over our breakfast cereal and wash it down with a glass of crude?
See, that’s the problem here. These sorts of comments aren’t just limited to free republic. They’re part of the public dialog, that’s how far discourse has been lowered.
The death panels thing was uttered by the fucking vice presidential candidate from two years ago.
Do you really need me to whip up a list of elected representatives who’ve called Obama a Marxist or communisty?
You people who act like the discourse hasn’t changed massively over the last 2 or 3 years puzzle me. Yes, I get that you’re partisan. Yes, I get that you have some obligation to your tribe. But for fucks sake, does that make you blind? You really don’t think the shit that’s been said about Obama is anything out of the norm?
That… made my balls hurt.
That last sentence “And neither does anyone else” says a lot about your mindset. You really honestly believe that everyone else thinks like you, don’t you?
You really do believe that we’re all totally self-centered sociopaths.
Does Initiative 1053 require the same 2/3rd majority (or plebiscite) to raise spending as it does taxes? Because that’s one of the reasons why California is so fucked up; the sovereign people make it harder to raise taxes without making it equally hard to raise spending.
Color me confused then, cause the Dems cut taxes for 95% of American taxpayers. So, I don’t get it. As one who has not had his taxes cut, I don’t share your view either. I don’t think the Democrats ever said or implied “give us your money so that you don’t have to be afraid anymore.” I think they’ve said, we can try to spend your tax money wisely for the greater good. Now, they’re far from perfect, I’ll grant you that.
Assume, for a moment, that a certain proportion of your personal spending is wasteful, and that a certain proportion of government spending is wasteful.
Do you have more fun personally wasting your money, or watching the government do it?
Calling Obama a Marxist is a lot different than the antichrist. One says that he holds to an evil political philosophy. The other says he’s come to destroy the planet. Tell you what…for every person you find calling Obama a Marxist, I’ll find a Doper calling a conservative a homophobe or racist. Deal?*
Let’s be clear, here. A Tu Quoque is something like:
A: P is bad. Therefore, you should stop doing P.
B: You do P too!
Yet my argument is:
You: Republicans do P and Democrats don’t.
Me: You do P too!
The point is that you can’t take some sort of moral high ground. You can’t say that when the Republicans do it, it means they’re cowering in fear and ignorance, but when the Democrats preach to their base like in…oh ,I don’t know…this thread, it doesn’t count because [insert reason here].
Why do you understand that “Republicans are all homophobes” is political, rhetorical hyperbole, but you don’t understand that “Obama is a Marxist” isn’t actually taken literally, and is just hyperbole for “Obama supports stronger, more expensive social programs.”?
*Hopefully you realize that’s just a rhetorical challenge. I’ve got stuff to do, man.
It’s supposed to. Euphonus’s statement was equally as stupid.
Seriously, what’s so hard to understand about “a third of my money going to taxes is too much, and I therefore don’t want to pay for other people’s health insurance, especially when I already have my own”?
What do you mean exactly? I know a little something about our tax system. I’d like to hear your explanation of what Chessic Sense is misunderstanding.
Uh, no, it’s not. People legitimately fear losing their insurance, because being without health care coverage can end up hugely fucking your finances (not to mention shorten your lifespan).
Here are some pretty pictures to show you why you’re a fucking idiot.
1.) *Everybody *does better when the President is from the Democratic Party.
2.) The efforts of the Republican Party are *overwhelmingly *skewed towards helping those who are already rich.
3.) Republicans only push harder during election years, trusting that morons like you will have the attention span of an idiomatic goldfish. (Not a literal goldfish–literal goldfish can actually remember and learn.)
No, accepting ignorance is never good.
Yes.
You *did *notice that you were replying to Starving Artist, right?
Because in true UHC, you’re not paying for your own plus everyone else’s, everyone else is helping you pay for yours too. It’s not a one-way street where others just take from you and give nothing back.
Touché.
The point is that it’s factually incorrect. The idea that he wants to turn us into the Soviet Union is comical to anyone with half a brain. It’s a tier beyond mere hyperbole. In that context, is it really that much more ridiculous to call him the antichrist?
And no, your offer is stupid. Yes, you can find random people on a mesage board to call a conservative homophobic or racist. What does that have to do with mainstream, elected officials saying false, outlandish things about Obama?
The funny thing too is that a significant fraction of the time the person calling the conservative a racist or homophobe is right, but you guys think you can declare victory as soon as the accusation is made regardless of its veracity. Are you going to counter my examples of elected public officials calling obama a secret muslim with (correct) statements from some random dude on a message board calling someone else a racist? How does that equal out?
I don’t even get what you’re trying to say here. Specifically, as it relates to my statements.
I’m saying the level of political discourse on the republican side has lowered to the point where actual, elected officials are calling Obama hyperbolic, evil things. You’re trying to counter it by saying random people on a message board says bad things about republicans. You don’t see the difference here? We expect our elected representatives to be reasonable people and not engage in this sort of over the top evil.
You said that Obama saying that people are afraid of losing their health insurance is fearmongering, and no, I’m saying that’s a legitimate fear. The fear mongering is the shit that’s MADE UP ENTIRELY OUT OF WHOLE CLOTH by people who know it’s untrue and who are supposed to be above that level of pure bullshit. Sarah Palin urging people not to vote for the health care bill because it’ll establish panels to determine if you’re worth treating is 100% bullshit and actively evil. She’s not some random person on a message board, she’s a fucking major political figure in the US. THAT is fearmongering.
No one is saying all republicans are homophobes, especially not elected democratic officials. And if anyone said that, I’d criticize that too. Your assumption here is faulty. I don’t support such a thing.
As for Obama being a marxist, there are lots of people in this country that genuinely believe that he’s not a US citizen, that he’s a secret muslim, that he’s a sleeper cell agent, that he’s an avowed marxist, etc. This isn’t playful hyperbole on the part of a few people - these are positions that hateful, ignorant retards genuinely hold.
Out of curiosity, do you think ERs should check people’s insurance before treating them, and if they don’t have it, turn them out to die on the middle of the street?
Want to give me some money? C’mon, it’s only, like, $20 a month. No? How come? Is it because you’re a self-centered sociopath? Oh, come on! I’m an American, you’re an American! We’re on the same team. You should care about my economic welfare. So how about that check? Want me to PM you my mailing address? Cash is OK, too.
No, I don’t think people are (or I am) self-centered sociopaths. But I do think that people only care about their local community and the people they know. They care about their families and friends. They care about their church or their social club. They care about their favorite restaurant and the bowling alley. And that’s about it.
Do you understand that I’m basically saying that people don’t like to give money to other people against their will? Are you really calling that behavior sociopathic? Because that’s what it sounds like you’re saying.
No need. I can already tell you. She thinks that I thought that my top marginal rate for the federal income tax was my overall tax rate. In fact, I just looked at what’s missing from my paycheck, which accounts for all income taxes. Those two numbers just so happen to be close, thus her error.
Want to put money on this one? Seriously. It’ll be the same thing - all they have to do is keep lying.
-Joe
Oh, and to put the lie to every conservative in this thread who’s crowing about how I just hate them on principle: I voted for a Republican for one office. Just because many of them are loathsome doesn’t mean that I don’t consider the candidates on their individual merits.
Do you think the roads are cool? What about people that don’t drive? Do you think libraries are okay to fund? What about people who don’t give a shit about them. Everyone has their own personal threshold of what’s legitimate for civilization and what’s evil pure transfer payments.
Now, you may be right - some programs may be purely redistributive - but it’s better to take the argument to criticizing specific programs rather than to try to play the “taxes are all evil!! Well, except maybe a few things I’m okay with them for!” stance.
So much to respond to, so little time. I’m not going to try to carve up your quotes, so:
First you talk about only counting elected political leaders and saying that message board posters don’t count, then you say “there are lots of people in this country that genuinely believe that he’s not a US citizen”. I’m confused. Are you talking about politicians in Congress or random citizens like Glenn Beck, this message board, and “lots of people”?
If you want an over-the-top, “hyperbolic, evil” statements made by politicians, how about “The Republican plan is ‘Get sick? Die quickly.’” That’s a pretty evil caricature to paint Republicans, isn’t it?
As for my Tu Quoque ‘lesson’, I was merely trying to head off that Doper favorite before anyone even said it.
Regarding ERs, I think hospitals should do whatever they need to do to stay open. If that means providing minimal care, then yes, they should turn them away. “Die in the street” is an exaggeration, but yeah, they shouldn’t treat people that can’t pay for it. That’s what charity is for. That’s why people set up foundations for that sort of thing. As for HC(Insurance)R, I think the government should set up an entity like the VA or Medicaid where you pay into it and receive the benefits of the plan. If you risk going without it, then that’s on you. The difference is that it’s not mandatory and you don’t get money out that you never paid in, just like SS and Unemployment.