Yup, First Amendment protections which I support. I may despise those sumbitches, but one must defend their right today because I might need to defend my rights to speak tomorrow. With the GOP firmly in the saddle, tomorrow might be sooner than one thinks.
This kind of shit pisses me off, too, though not soley for the reasons stated in the OP. I think that decrying any religious group in general as inherently stupid is wrong, true, but I have a more personal and vested interest in making sure this kind of thing doesn’t happen.
See, everytime I see something like this happen, I have the incredible urge–and, some say, the obligation–to go up to the people offended and say “we’re not all like that.”
Case in point–at a high-attendance festival this past Labor Day, I attended a hardcore concert with a few friends. There were some people on an overpass holding signs. Not protest “you’re going to hell” signs, mind you, but something along the lines of “John 3:16”.
Hey, fine, whatever. So long as they’re not condemning me–or anyone else–to Hell, I’m more than happy to ignore them/tolerate their presence/whatever. They were being unobtrusive, they weren’t disturbing the concert, and they weren’t, as far as I saw, holding any offensive signs. They were just standing there.
Of course, a bunch of the people in the concert started to scream obscenities at them and flip them off ::sighs::.
So, as a result, my friend and I (we’re both brands of pagan, incidentally) climb up the overpass to (attempt) to explain that we’re not all like that (we referring to hardcore fans and (only incidentally) pagans). The three of us happened to have an interesting theological debate, and parted on good terms. A few other members of the audience did the same.
I guess my rambling point is this: I hate it when (gamers, pagans, Christians, hardcore fans, goths, punks, white people, [insert any other group I am even marginally affiliated with]) starts spewing the religious/racial/ethnic /whatever hatred. It not only reflects upon the entire group negatively, but also reflects negatively upon myself. I try to do the best I can to rectify the situation by apologizing on behalf of the group and trying to make amends, but sometimes that’s not possible.
Needless to say, had I been in the company of the OP and his gaming pals that night, they would’ve gotten a healthy dose of “shut the fuck up.”
as a general rule you wont hear asshole athiests spouting off about the sins of others, you wont have any of them show up at your door trying to convert you, they dont go to third world countries and try to convert the locals, they dont hate gays for reasons other than their own personal ones, they dont support keeping pediphile priests in the church, they don’t shout at you that you are going to rot in hell, they dont hand out leaflets at concerts asking if you have accepted jesus as you personal savior.
in short asshole christans are some of the most vocal mother fuckers out there so you will perhaps understand if people have an easy time singling them out.
If this posts multiple times, I’m sorry; it’s fucking gigantic, but the server’s throwing fits at me.
Off the top of my head?
Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong (Diocese of Newark)
At least one faction of the United Methodist Church (currently, if I’m remembering church politics right, the UMC is under threat of schisming precisely on the subject of this issue); for an example of a specific such church, Wesley Methodist Church in Minneapolis, Minnesota. (Unless it’s in Saint Paul.) Where I attended services once, and came away quite convinced of where they stood on the issue.
I believe Unitarian Univeralist churches are positive as a point of doctrine. (Though not all UUs are Christian, some are.)
The church representatives that testified against the Massachusetts Defense of Marriage Act that they believed that a ban on gay marriage was restricting their freedom to practice their religion.
The individual acts of individual Christians, not all of whom choose to be identified by their faith, even when their actions are guided by their understanding of it.
According to the essays on http://www.religioustolerance.org/ I would add:
The Anglican Church of Canada does not support gay marriage, but holds that homosexuals are children of God. The Anglican Communion in general will appoint homosexuals as priests (male or female), though only celibate ones.
The Disciples of Christ denomination has issued official requests for legislation to end civil liberties disparities, sponsors support and discussion groups for homosexuals and supporters; it’s divided on homosexual clergy. While there are discussions within the local groups designed to raise awareness, there is no denominational push towards forming an official position within the denomination.
The Church of England apparently holds that homosexuality is acceptable among the laity, but not the clergy, but several people, including the Archibishop of Wales, have gone on the record as objecting vociferously to this divide. Said Archibishop of Wales is apparently the prime candidate for the next Archibishop of Canterbury. (Head of the CoE.) That’s as of October of this year.
The Church of Scotland is working to get a repeal of Clause 28, a law which bans teaching about homosexuality in school curricula.
The Community of Christ (an offspring of Mormonism) has recently added homosexuality to their list of Things Upon Which Basis It is Not Legitimate To Discriminate. They have some internal regulations about positions that mya be held by gays, which are currently being subjected to internal review.
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is a bit conflicted, supports gays among the laity by official position, but will not bless unions or appoint clergy. In Denmark, they took into consideration laws formalizing same-sex partnerships and some determined to develop a religious ritual for marking them; however, this was shot down in a fit of internal politics, and matters are currently left to the conscience of individual pastors. The Lutheran Church of Australia is also a mixed bag, calling gays and lesbians “children of God” but insisting on celibacy. They do, though, say the Bible holds no opinion on homosexuality.
The Metropolitan Community Church was founded as a denomination to be a gay and lesbian positive congregation; among other things, they state that Paul of Tarsus’s comments on the subject of homosexuality are matters of cultural bias, not divine inspiration.
The Mennonites have issued several public apologies for past declarations of bigotries, and have as a denomination protested against at least one Federal law that would have explicitly legitimised discrimination on the basis of orientation. They do, however, as a rule only accept celibate gays as members of their congregations. (As a rule, not an absolute.)
The Presbyterian Church in the US is also potentially schisming over the issue. The Presbyterian Church in Canada holds against homosexuality, but has sanctified gay clergy.
Quakers are as variable as humans in general, and have no official line. See “acts of individual Christians” above.
The Reformed Church in the Netherlands holds that homosexuality is not a religious issue, but rather a human rights issue, and deals with it appropriately.
The United Church of Christ was apparently not only the first church in the States to ordain a black person and a woman, but also the first to ordain a gay man and a lesbian. They have an official commitment to work for civil rights legislation at all government levels. They bless same-sex unions.
The United Church of Canada consistently overrules the beliefs of the prejudiced majority of its members by issuing doctrinal statements supporting homosexuals, including within its clergy. It has also been politically active within the Canadian government for equal rights legislation. Some congregations bless same-sex unions.
The Uniting Church of Australia has an official policy permitting the ordination of gays and lesbians, which is not very well supported in practice. The official policies, however, are generally supportive.
The Unity Church has at least some members who are concerned that divisive rhetoric formerly used against ethnic minorities and religious minorities are now being used against sexual minorities. Some Unity clergy bless same-sex unions, and they have an official certificate for this ritual.
Flippant note: Oh, hey, the Church of Christ explicitly recognizes my own sexually related deviancy and condemns that as sin alongside homosexuality! Fuckin’ a, that’s recognition!
I don’t know, lacking the rest of the conversation, I wouldn’t consider it to be absolutely certainly assholish. Considering it’s a group of gamers, and the amount of negative attention that certain christian groups or individuals have focused on such things as D&D and MtG, it could have been rather justified. For example, I could see the whole thing starting with complaining about some christian group that is calling D&D evil, and saying it makes people kill others (Bonus points if they point out one where someone killed another with a sword… If there are any, only example like that I’ve ever seen was an urban legend inspired by a movie).
Just noting this, because I’ve seen rants here about certain christian groups. Especially inspired by the Chick “classic” Dark Dungeons, and a link to a group that was portraying D&D as the most evil human invention in recent history…
gobear is going to give himself an ulcer if he keeps reacting this way. Seriously, man, cool off a little. You simply can’t continue to take all this stuff so personally. Every single thing about Christians to you ends up turning into some vitriolic rant about “gay-bashers.” You keep getting violently upset about the views of these fundamentalist Protestant evangelicals, and it’s blinding you to the point wherein you’re painting these people with strokes far too broad. Even if you weren’t, the obsession you reveal about this strikes me as unhealthy, IMHO.
Are there some Christians out there who oppose you? Sure. Are there some who actively interfere with your life? In some cases, yes. But there comes a point at which you simply have to sit back and say, “I’m above this.” Your violent reaction to their ideas shows that you are letting your response be controlled by their words. You’re allowing them to hurt you even worse if you let them provoke you like this. Sometimes you just have to live your life, and not concern yourself with the fool who stands on his hill shouting at nobody. I’m not suggested you simply abandon your viewpoints, nor that there isn’t something to be gained from fighting for your beliefs, but rather that you might be better off if you did not let it consume you like this.
Do not let yourself be angered by the words of children and idiots. Forgive them, for they know not what they say. Let it go, find happiness where you will, and be the best damn gobear you can be. That’s really the only thing this world asks of us.
It’s just like I was saying before. When someone bashes Christianity, it’s somehow “different”. Just because it is…see? See? Don’t you get it? :rolleyes:
Personally, I think it goes back to the Raised by Wolves Syndrome. Some people have no clue—it’s like they are Raised by Wolves (RBW). No social skills. They just don’t think about what comes out of their mouth, I guess.
I don’t care what group it is they are bashing, but if they are in the presence of someone they don’t know really well, they need to get a clue. Wait until after they know the person a little better. If the new person has the same mindset, bash away. But until then, it’s just common sense to curb their tongues a little. Unless they want to be seen as insensitive boors.
A few weeks ago a new coworker showed serious RBW damage. She managed to bash gays, my home state of California, and a friend’s religion, all in one shift. (And yes, I did speak up about her comments, and tried to “educate” her as best I could.)
WHAT? What are these people thinking? And when they behave this way, do they think they are endearing? Do they think at ALL?
And as far as the “it’s just different when I shit on you because you are part of a majority”, well, that isn’t flying with me. I’ve been pretty low-key about my religion, I don’t preach, I try to stand up for issues that are important to me (like gay rights) and yet somehow I “deserve” to be insulted and preached at? Why? What have I done? I don’t deserve to be insulted—hell, NO ONE does, unless THEY START SOMETHING FIRST. And since I didn’t START anything, I ain’t taking anything. And I don’t care how oppressed you are, if I DIDN’T SHIT ON YOU, YOU DON’T GET TO SHIT ON ME. Because I am not the one oppressing you. Is that clear enough?
End of story. So don’t give me this “It’s different” bullshit, because I’m not taking it.
Firstly: I don’t have a single one of the Power 9. Most of the Type 1 competition I’ve played in were just small-time tournaments with maybe 20-25 people at most. I can’t play Type II (or Standard or whatever it’s called now) because I have very few of the new cards and it’s just a cunning way to get me to buy the new cards, the greedy bastards! 
There’s an Extended tourny on Saturday I might go to, but I’ll have to check the official banned / restricted list and modify my deck accordingly.
ahem Enough geekery.
Now, these people are entitled to their opinions. They have the right to express those opinions.
These people have quite possibly had bad experiences in the past with some Christians.
Regardless, these people were somewhat assholish about expressing their views.
I’m not calling for pitchforks and torches. I was just ranting about an assholish act that irked me. Overall these people seem pretty cool and I hope to have more gaming fun with them in the future. If this sort of thing happens again I will find some way of letting them know I find it offensive. Or I’ll leave. Or both. None of that will change the fact that what they did was jerkish.
gobear, you and I probably agree on more stuff than we disagree on. I’m about as atheist as they get, and I think religion in general and Christianity in particular have created many evils in the world. But there are ways of expressing such an idea straightforwardly without being an ass about it, like those gamers were. Also, the gamers’ comments were directed at Christians, not Christianity. I think this is an important distinction.
Uhmm gobear, you did read my request that I use your parable at a meeting OF MY CHURCH’S YOUTH GROUP, right? One of these kids has already assumed that I’m gay just because I’m not married and have spoken in favor of homosexuality, but she has been disabused of that notion. You’re sounding a bit like kirkland at the moment.
BlackKnight, considering there are Christians out there who believe RPG’s are evil, and even at least a few Episcopalians who are leery of Harry Potter, I can sort of see where those guys were coming from. On the other hand, I’d be pretty uncomfortable about it, and not just because I’m Christian. Me, I’d say something especially considering some of the stuff they said like "“Well, maybe they’re too stupid to figure out how to use a sword!”, but then again, I can be chronically stupid some times. If nothing else, look into some of the various types of angels, seraphim, and cherubim tell them about them, and point out me must have a lot of imagination to come up with something like that. Then, of course, there’s the fact that C.S. Lewis and Madeline L’Engle were Christians (Episcopalian, to be precise, to make up for the Harry Potter types). I think Tolkein was one as well, but I could be wrong.
Oh, and bernse, no, we are the best kind!
CJ
I would contend that Christianity bashing is “different” because becoming/being a Christian is a choice. Bashing a black person? Bad. Bashing a gay person… I guess the jury’s still out on this, but I think science is leaning towards it being genetic, so you can’t bash gay people. But you can bash Christians, Klan members, Democrats, and the NAMBLA types until the cows come home.
So, really, bashing Christianity isn’t a unique type of bashing. It’s just in a separate category from racism, sexism, homophobia, and the like. If you ARE contending that Christian bashing is different, then I’ll offer the rebuttal that at least once a week I see someone noting, “Isn’t it odd that the only people you can pick on these days are fat people/Catholics/Republicans/people who wear white after Labor Day/etc.?”
**
Bullshit. If BlackKnight is the newcomer, HE has to put up with THEIR idiosyncracies. On what planet does a person walk into an established group and say, “No no, that won’t do, you must change behaviors X and Y, and tone down the Z”? If he don’t like 'em, the door’s that way. Yeah, the Geek Circle risks pushing people away, but that’s their fucking prerogative.
Quix
What gets me is him saying, “So? You aren’t Christian, so why should you be offended?”
By that kind of logic, the next time I see Fred Phelps, I shouldn’t be offended, because I’m not gay.
I would like to disabuse the atheists who believes that the faith of a religious person is a matter of choice in all cases. For myself, it is as impossible to give up my faith as for Gobear to give up his sexual orientation.
<sigh> So because your ox is not gored, therefore no ox is gored, and I should just shut up, is that it?
Yeah, perhaps you should shut up.
You do realize that these gamers were insulting Christians like Polycarp, andygirl, Duck Duck Goose, among others? Yet, that’s okay, because so many Christians are assholes.
Why should I bother, when you don’t do the same in return?
But I will. Because I tend to treat others as I want to be treated.
Look guys the only Christians these gamers had ever heard of were very probably the igits who make headlines by saying that Muhammad was a terrorist and that Tellitubies are gay.
When you have a huge list of examples of behavior for a certain group that are just plain stupid and no examples from that same group of intellegent behavior it is reasonable to assume that pretty much the whole group is brain dead. Is this fair? No. But I don’t think you can compare people making bigoted comments about a minority group with people making a rational determination about the members of a voluntary organization based on the information that group produces about itself for public consumption.
90% of everything put out by Christians is put out by fundies. They stuff it in you mail box. They shout it at you on the street. They broadcast it on their own television networks. They get quoted by the main stream press. Non-fundie Christians don’t follow along behind and stuff notes in your mailbox saying, “Sorry, we’re not all like that.” You cannot blame these guys for believing the image that Chistianity projects of itself in this country.
I know there are Christians who don’t fit into the image that this group of gamers have of Christians. But if I based my opinion of Christians solely on the Christian information made freely available by Christians I would assume that all Chritains were idiots.
The attitude of these gamers, while probably having something to do with the average social skills of gamers, is at least as much to be blamed on the image that Christians present of themselves. If that makes you uncomfortable then get your denomination to buy the air time directly following the 700 Club on your local TV station and rebut everything those loons broadcast.
But do not come down on non-Christians for believing that the representation of your faith that is produced by your faith is a acurate representation of your faith.
No, you should just shut up. You say that the OP shouldn’t have taken offense because there wasn’t any Christians in the room. There’s no gay people in my church on Sundays, so I suppose we should go nuts with the evils of homosexuality, and you wouldn’t have a problem with this.
There are plenty of Christians that don’t assault homosexuality with the vigor that you’re assaulting us. Some of us write articles for our websites and school papers deriding the sanctimonious persecutions of homosexuals. I wrote one such paper when “Pastor” Fred Phelps appeared on the news for the first time a few years ago. And I didn’t denounce ol’ Fred for his religion, I denounced him for his hate.
And by the way, can you even answer a question without the words “Fuck you”? Do you really think it’s appropriate to condemn all Christians as close-minded asshole because of one troglodyte on the radio somewhere? Fred Phelps does the same thing. To be honest, the vitriolic bullshit you’ve posted makes me wonder if you’re not the bizzaro-world version of him.
Exactly.
If you think the picketing of funerals of AIDS victims is in any wway equivalent in gravity of offense to a pack of nerds bitching in a basement your sense of proportion is out of whack. ** Polycarp, Andygirl, Duck Duck Goose, and your worthy self are all fine people, but that does not change the fact that organized religion, and Christianity in particular, have caused a great deal of suffering. Sure, Chartres Cathedral is very beautiful; yup, Book of Common Prayer is lovely English prose, and so what? Is that supposed to balance out the anguish that is caused to gay people every day by officially sanctioned religious antigay hatred?
And don’t get me started on the most recent sins of your denomination, sister.
B.
See, you say there’s only one troglydyte on the radio when I can thousands of churches and religious organizations, like the well-funded and extremely popular Focus on the Family that preach antigay hatred. You’re dishonest when you try to pretend that antigay sentiment is not dominant in American churchgoing culture.
Oh, so now it’s not whether group X is okay to bash, it’s whether the perceived slight is above gobear’s Line O’ Offence, right?
Funny thing though; I don’t remember anyone contending that the nerds were worse than picketing AIDS victims’ funerals, and I don’t think anyone would. But hey, these strawmen are fun, aren’t they, so what the hell.
Hey, disabuse all you like, but you’re wrong. I’m living proof that it’s possible for a Fundie Christian to give up his faith.
Just because you haven’t given up your faith and have no immediate plans to do so doesn’t make it impossible to do so.