Gobear wrote:
It is quite amazing then that you don’t condemn Islam. And Orthodox Judaism.
GOBEAR, you used to be one of the posters I most respected on these Boards, but your knee-jeck anti-Christian bashing, and your refusal to see how inappropriate such “bashing” behavior is from a gay man, have caused me to totally revise my opinion of you.
I think you’ll find your loathing of Christianity to be a self-fulfilling prophesy. Your hostility will alienate the moderates who might otherwise have stood by you, and then when you look around and see only fundies and what they stand for, you can tell yourself you were right all along about what we believe, and what we do.
Ignorance I can deal with, but willful ignorance? Pathetic.
And these people represent all of Christianity just because they were Christians? So are all gay people like Jeffrey Dahmer, Mohammed Atta, Eric Harris & Dylan Klebold, Heinrich Himmler, Andrew Cunanan, Gilles de Rais, Tiberius, and J. Edgar Hoover? Of course not.
There’s bad people and good people in every group of people. Saying that a group of people have caused bad things is meaningless, since they also have done a lot of good. This applies to both homosexuals and Christians. Members of both have brought both great amounts of good and bad to society. So don’t go around saying that all Christians are bad just because of the acts of some. The amount of bad things has to be a lot larger than the good things for that group to be considered bad.
Typo alert:
“to be considered bad” should be “to be rightfully considered bad”.
I believe I can survive the blow. The quotes around “bashing” to suggest an equivalence between my venting in the Pit and a gay guy getting beaten to death? Right backatcha, counselor.
Pfft. Where were the moderates when the “Love Won Out” freakshow led by head freak John Paulk rolled into town? Nowhere, that’s where. Absolutely mute. Religious moderates haven’t been a real help so far, have they not?
You know, it’s really frustrating that I have to keep silent. I don;t talk about my feelings to anybody out in the world. I smile, and I’m friendly, and I never say what I feel. It is so intensely frustrating that other people can vent, that they can express anger, and I can’t.
I have to be quiet, and just take it, and take it, and keep on taking it.
I’m not allowed to have Christmas with my boyfriend’s family. Why? His grandparents are good Christians who would be horrified to find out he’s gay. (Gay people are evil, you see.) My own sister is a fundy who, of course, wants me to leave my “demonic lifestyle” and until I do, I don’t exist.
But you don’t want to hear it, soI’m shutting up for good.
How long do I have to keep on smiling before I break?
Do you think that Dahmer murdered because he was gay? Then don’t think that your sister disowns you because she is Christian. When did Christ ever set such an example?
gobear, your experiences are unfortunate, and it’s utter crap that you have to deal with them on a regular basis. I have no such experience to parallel or give an even cloudy reflection of.
But don’t you find it the least bit pointless bitching about every grandparent in the world when all you really want to do is bitch about/to one of them?
You certainly deserve a big, loud bullhorn to condemn the bullshit that takes place. Just make sure you’re making a distinction between the bulls and the horses that are creating it.* You’re a smart fucking guy, gobear. But for some reason this is the one area that you choose to lump everyone together and say “fuck you” to, regardless of that party’s involvement.
[sub]*And please, spare us the “whether it’s a bull or a horse, it’s still shit” line. That’s not my point.[/sub]
gobear, I’m on the recieving end of familial disgust and/or shunning without justification as well, and it really hurts. I just don’t get where you get relief from disparaging 33% of mankind. I know quite a few gays/lesbians who have no bitterness at all, and lead enviable lives (or so it appears). I also know one who continually gets ripped off by his casual lovers and constantly complains about it. Life is what you make of it, and how you address your problems factor in your happiness. At the moment you sound like a bitterly entrenched victim.
Besides, there are gay Christians.
…it sucks that those people in your life are being first class dicks. You should bitch about them as loudly as you want. In stereo. With many references to felching. You should rail against them, and try to educate them, and, when all else fails, dismiss them as fucking morons.
Ranting about and yelling at and bashing those who are homophobic reactionary dicks is always right. Railing against a group simply because they contain some homophobic reactionary dicks is not right.
I don’t know where they were, but since you apparently didn’t see them, they must not exist, right? Guess I’ll just tell my church to stop all the pesky soul-searching about whether homosexual behavior is a sin or not – we’re Christian, so we know it is, right? Because that’s what all Christians believe. And those statements my church, conflicted as it is, passed to reaffirm that tolerance and love of your neighbor, regardless of sexual orientation, are to be the order of the day, and that all people are entitled to basic human rights – heck, let’s just repeal those! Because we don’t really believe that; no, we’re all just a bunch of hateful bigots taking our cues from our hero, Fred Phelps or, God help us, Torquemada.
This is such crap. Utter, utter bullshit. WE’RE NOT ALL THE SAME! WE’RE NOT ALL LIKE THAT! For a guy who seems so bright, you sure have trouble grasping that. You can express all the anger you want about all the outrages you see committed by fundamentalist Christians whose religious philosophy is based on, at best, sheep-like devotion to dogma most of them don’t even really understand, or, at worst, sheer hatred for those who are different. But if you persist in acting like you see no difference between the liberal wing of the United Church of Christ and the conservative wing of snake-handling evangelicals, then you are going to continue to both (a) appear like in your zeal to spread vitriol, you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about and (b) alienate moderate to liberal Christians who probably sympathize with your causes and your problems. I know I have that sympathy, but at this point its purely theoretical in your case, because the hateful things you post about my religion turn my stomach. Though I continue to be amused – and scornful – of your “defense by degrees.” Your bashing is okay because it’s not as bad as some other kinds – as if “not as bad” is synonymous with “good.” Tell me – how’s that work again?
Are you boyfriend’s grandparents UCC? Are they moderate or liberal Protestants of any stripe? How about moderate or liberal Catholic – is that what they are? How about your sister? But surely not, because in GOBEAR’s black-and-white world, every Christian is a fundamentalist Christian. And, of course, that world has to be black and white, or else you’d have to direct his anger at those who actually deserve it – and that does not include the moderate Christians you have unaccountably made a habit of pissing off on this Board.
If you’ve lost your rationality to the point that you can no longer distiguish your friends from your enemies, and if you find it impossible to direct your rage at those who deserve it, then I guess maybe you should.
Gobear, I also like and respect you, and I’m sorry your family is such a bunch of idiots. I’m also sorry that one of my oldest and dearest friends can’t bring his partner home to meet his parents for the same reason.
You’re right. People like me don’t get publicity, and I’m appalled that my own diocese reaffirmed its stance against gay marriage. That’s precisely why I’m going back to a church I walked out of a month ago, one that’s 15 miles from home, so I can change those attitudes! That’s also one of the reasons I stay in touch with a fellow who goes to that church and who also heads up the local boy scout troup. To me, homophobia and gay bashing are directly contradictory to the foundations of Christianity as given to us by Christ, Himself.
I don’t blame you for being angry, and I’m not trying to be patronizing or hurt or insult you in anyway for that. I’m angry, too. In fact, I’m bloody furious that people like Phelps and his ilk feel that they have the privilege of inflicting deliberate, acute cruelty on people because of who they choose to love. I’m also amazed that they have the temerity to call themselves Christians myself. Not only am I aware that your ox is being gored, I’m sickened that the people who are goring it are doing so in the name of my religion. If I could, if they had to gore somebody, I’d much rather it be me. I’m used to insults, you see, and I doubt that there’s much left that I haven’t been called.
I was very serious about using your take on that parable, and, if I don’t use it on Sunday, I’d like to get it into my old church’s newsletter. I won’t do so without your permission, but I really think it makes a good point. You see, I have this crazy notion that if I don’t work for change within my church, it may not change and the conservatives you and I so dislike will take over completely. Right now, there’s still a pretty active resistance, even if we don’t make the headlines.
Peace,
CJ
Look at it this way, gobear and the rest of the non-Christians on the Board – at least you can disown Phelps. Why can’t he find some other religion to disgrace?! Yeah, I guess I’d better 
CJ
Everytime I get really angry, a good soul like CJHoworth makes me think there may be some decency left in the world. I have to admire her devotion to her faith and her courage to try to open cold hearts and closed minds. Knowing the trials that she herself has faced recently, I am even more impressed by CJHoworth’s generosity of spirit. Confronted by scuh a person, I am disarmed. I apologize for hurting your feelings and your faith. And you can reprint my post if you want. It will give people something to laugh at, at any rate.
See, I can’t fight that. The power of intercession and charity just leaves me in awe.
Jodi, on the other hand, is a different matter.
No, I can’t. You completely don’t get it. When I wrote “You know, it’s really frustrating that I have to keep silent. I don;’ talk about my feelings to anybody out in the world. I smile, and I’m friendly, and I never say what I feel. It is so intensely frustrating that other people can vent, that they can express anger, and I can’t.”
I was quite serious. Who am I going to complain to? My boyfriend? Why put him in the middle of something he can’t change? His (Roman Catholic) grandparents aren’t going to embrace gayness, trust me. Who am I going to complain about my fundy sister to? The rest of the family doesn’t want to hear about it, so I keep quiet.
And you persist in acting like the liberal wing of the Church is firmly in charge and the “snake handling evangelicals” don’t exist! (BTW, evangelicals don’t handle snakes). All you care about is for me to stop criticizing your beloved institution; that elements of it cause me pain makes no difference to you.
Jodi, in the two years I’ve posted here, you’ve consistently talked to me as if I were something disgusting you had found underneath your shoe. I have never felt one ounce of kindness or respect from you, ever, so don’t try the “more in sorrow than in anger” ploy.
Still, I apologize to you, too. Clearly, even cold people must have weak spots in their defenses, and apparently I found yours. Somewhere underneath that analytical, clockwork lawyer facade, there must be a gentle Jodi who likes chocolate and rainy days and love songs that unaccountably bring a tear to the eye, and that person I have no wish to hurt.
So, yeah, I’ll put a cork in it. People have feelings and those feelings must be respected. I will stay away from religious discussions here, and in everyday life, I’ll keep smiling and pretending that nothing bothers me.
Or you might try simply aiming better.
Gobear, I’m sorry I ruined a perfectly good rant.
BlackKnight, here’s a suggestion which will really play with their heads if those gamers say “Fucking Christians!” again. Tell them you know one, a female, who is a gamer, who finds them attractive, and has even fucked at least one, and who will never fuck anyone with an attitude like that. IOW, they didn’t exactly blow it. More accurately, they just made sure it will never be blown, at least by her (OK, me)!
If you try it, let me know if it works. Oh, and if I ever “give you my word as a Sunday School teacher” about something, check for loopholes.
CJ
I’m going to jump in here to say exactly two things:
First, I was not particularly offended by the anti-Christian attitude of the gamers recounted in the OP – because I know of Christians who think that D&D and related gaming stuff are indeed the Work of the Devil[sub]TM[/sub]. Their stance is quite a bit akin to that of gobear and others who hear as the voice of Christianity the outspoken extremists who get press coverage.
Which brings me to point two. Have you ever seen a Pride parade? Typically, the majority of marchers are apparently normal people who happen to be out about being gay – groups of gay lawyers, gay business executives, gay students, and so on. But what makes the papers? Some guy cavorting in a thong and nothing else but body paint on the back of a float, ten topless Lesbians carefully shot so that the two ladies with large firm breasts atop a shapely figure are in the foreground, etc.
The message that most gay people are like most other people, just wanting to get on with their lives without harassment, is lost, because the controversial wierdos get the press.
Christianity is suffering from the same stuff. We had three laymen go to Haiti to minister to the destitute there over the last year. Not a note, even in the diocesan paper or the desperate-for-news weeklies. But if Fred Phelps pickets in Assmunch, SD, pop. 7 and one dog (and the dog’s packing to leave), the AP carries that nationally.
Kudos to Lilairen for her shopping list of pro-gay Christian groups. (Minor note: Spong is now retired, and continues writing and speaking nationally; his former diocese continues to conduct itself as affirming and inclusive of its gay membership.)
Gobear, I personally have taken a lot of flak for my pro-gay stance. I know several other Christians on this board have too. We’re trying to get out a voice of moderation and common sense, and an affirmation that you too are worthy of respect, compassion, and brotherhood. Unfortunately, no matter how loud we say it, it gets drowned out by the Coulters and Dobsons of the world.
But we will keep trying. It’s what our Lord wants us to do, and we’re true to Him – and therefore true to you.
It may be inaccurate to say that the liberal wing of Christianity is in charge.
It’s exactly as inaccurate to say that the conservative wing of Christianity is in charge.
Ain’t nobody in charge. Anyone who says there is is lying, mistaken, or confused.
Thanks for noticing my concatenation, Polycarp. I was beginning to wonder if it was invisible or something.
Polycarp has a point about the assholes and show-offs being the ones you remember. It’s like in retail-even though the majority of customers were wonderful, it’s always the assholes I remember.
That’s not because of being gay or Christian, though. It’s because people are stupid and like outrageous stuff.
It’s starting to get to me as well, because now I hear someone say they’re Christian, or just religious-and it makes me very wary. And I don’t like that attitude.
Yes, your sister sounds like a real winner. Sure. Yeah, your boyfriend’s grandparents are asshats. HOWEVER, does that mean that Poly is an asshat, merely because he’s a Christian?
I could again, turn it around and say, where were you when ACT UP came into my church (No, they didn’t, but let’s just say they did) and spat on the Altar and knocked the Host out of my hands and threw condoms all over my five year old cousin?
Let’s face it-people suck, for the most part. But we still have to strive to look for the individual. And knocking people as part of a group is NOT OKAY. Well, unless they’re like, I don’t know, fans of Joe Don Baker, or something like that.