I don’t deny that the Yanks are a smart, good team. They’ve made some very good roster and prospect decisions.
But without that Multi-Million dollar pickup they get during the offseasons (Clemens and Mussina come to mind, get ready for Giambi this year…) that they are no better than a handful of other teams.
Shit, I am a Braves fan, and we have had one of the highest payrolls in Baseball over the past 6 years or so. But above being a Braves fan, I am a BASEBALL fan and it blows that teams like the Expos (who arguably have the the best scouts and farm system in the bigs) are about to fold.
So hell yeah, I’m all kinds of ready for the salary cap.
And re Jeter, Willaims, Rivera, etc: If any of them had come up through the Montreal farm team that they wouldn’t have been able to afford to keep him. The fact that the Yanks have a great minor league organization (which I am not arguing against) has nothing to do with The fact that they spend more than anyone else to keep they players they have, and buy the best players available.
Biggirl the Red Sox, as anyone paying attention to the season would know, had a bunch of injuries helped to keep the Sox out of the post season. Same with Dodgers. Keep them healthy and we’re probably looking at a different situation.
Granted, the Yankees make excellent decisions with their money. However, they can also afford to pull crap like bidding on Canseco just to keep his price range out of another team’s means (last year) and when they end up getting him they can afford to eat the cost of that mistake.
Give the Mariners another 35 million to spend on free agents and lets see where they are in the post season. Maybe in a different place.
I don’t begrudge the Yankees the ability to spend what they can to win. I’d do the same thing in their position. And yes, winning does help bring in the money, but guess what, the Yankees are also sitting in the largest market in the US. They will ALWAYS pull in more money from cable, etc. than a team like the Twins in a smaller market. Is that fair?
Just recognize that the Yankees ability to buy who they need and trade for what they need and keep their home grown talent is is the MAIN reason for their success. Wise management decisions practically guarantees success, but they couldn’t make those decisions without the ability to pay for them.
I’m not sure that a salary cap is the answer though. Definitely more revenue sharing, and a salary floor so that teams are forced to at least make an attempt at a payroll instead of pocketing the money that comes in from revenue sharing. Also, maybe a luxury tax system like the NBA. That way teams like the Yankees can continue to spend what they feel they need to, but it would help get some more revenue to other teams. (Remember the salary floor).
Let me repeat. I am not against a salary cap. I think the Yanks will still be a great team even under a salary cap. The Yanks have a great system. A salary cap would only help teams with great farm systems. The Yanks have great scouts. A salary cap would only help a team that knows how to pick talent.
What I am against are all the Yankee bashers who keep saying that the Yankees bought their way into the Series. No, they did not. They raised good players. They scouted good players. They played their way in.
Now, all of you who are bemoaning the fact that the Yanks always win. Well, I feel for you. Being a big Knick fan, I can empathize. But nobody tore down the Bulls when they were winning. Hated them? Sure. But look for every other reason besides them being a great fucking team? Not hardly.
The Yanks are a great fucking team. Deal with it.
So, Biggirl are you saying that the fact that the Yankees were able to spend $35 million more than the Mariners doesn’t help them in the postseason this year? If you deny that then you are fucking delusional.
Montreal has a better farm system than the Yankees. They just can’t afford to keep their players.
The Twins had an excellent home grown team this year. But they needed another bat. If they were the Yankees they simply go out and buy Justice. Unfortunately, the Twins CAN’T AFFORD TO DO THAT!
The Mariners made INCREDIBLE personell decisions. Testament to that is that they won that many games after losing A-Rod, Johnson, and Griffey. Give them the extra $35 million that the Yankees spent and let’s see who’s in the Series this year.
Or, how about this one, give the D-Backs the $30 million difference in payroll and see who’s ahead in the series. Let them invest that 30 million in some better relievers, or another bat, or another starter.
To put it bluntly, Biggirl if you can’t understand that the MAJOR reason that the Yankees win time after time is that they have the LARGEST payroll in the game then you are a fucking idiot. Yes, they have a good farm team and yes they make good personell decisions. But that doesn’t mean JACK SHIT if they can’t afford to keep the players that come up or afford the payroll increases when they bring in free agents to plug holes.
And you want to talk basketball and the Knicks? Wanna know why you can’t bitch about payrolls in the NBA? How about because the Knicks are spending the second most in the NBA. The Lakers are spending the sixth most. There’s a difference of $15 million. In this case, the reason that the Lakers win isn’t because of its payroll it’s because they ACTUALLY ARE the best team. If the Lakers have the highest payroll in the NBA and pull off what they do then I’m sure that there would be all sorts of the same types of complaints coming from New York. But they can’t say shit because they are outspending everyone except Portland and still can’t win.
Eh, bullshit. The Yanks had a ton of injuries this year, too, but they had the depth on their bench and in their bullpen to keep winning.
I don’t know why you (and others) fail to understand that Biggirl knows perfectly well that the high payroll is very beneficial to the team. She even said that she would support some kind of salary cap or revenue sharing. (I would too)
The Yankees are playing fair within the system. Other teams spend as much (or if you want to nitpick, very nearly as much). But they don’t win. The Yankees win because of good management, wise spending, and Yankee magic. Sorry that the Diamondbacks don’t have Yankee magic, but they don’t. (But they do have a swimming pool, which is kind of cool.)
Yer all sucking on sour grapes.
And how in the world can you say that the last two victories were somehow a fix of pre-ordained or “bought?” Were you watching the same game I was?? Listen, if I were going to try to buy a game, I wouldn’t wait until the last out to do it. Sheesh.
Oh that’s such crap. The Yankes injuries don’t compare to the Sox injuries. Their two best offensive players played in exactly 16 games together. Their three best offensive players played in exactly 14 games together. Their three best offensive players and their pitching ace didn’t play in ANY of the same games. Remind me of the Yankees circumstances, again.
I agree with most of that. But the Yankees also win because THEY SPEND MORE!!! They can have all the management, wise spending, and magic in the world but it doesn’t do them nearly as much good if you take away a chunk of that payroll. Get it through that thick skull of yours. I’m not saying that they’re not playing fair within the system. I’m saying that the SYSTEM isn’t fair.
They also don’t have the extra $30 million that the Yankees have access to. Magic has nothing to do with it.
Don’t remind me.
No, sour grapes would be if I said that I didn’t want my team to win the World Series anyway. I’m not. In fact, I would LOVE for my team to have the Yanks payroll and management. I’m simply pointing out some obvious facts and an uneven playing field. I’m not saying that the Yankees would suddenly lose every game if they had to cut their payroll, I’m just saying they wouldn’t win AS MUCH. And when they did win, I would know that it was because of things like good management, wise spending, etc., instead of payroll. Right now, I’m not convinced that payroll is the major reason why the Yanks are so dominant.
I think the fix idea is pretty lame. But when people (at least me) were talking about the Yanks buying their rings, I didn’t mean it to imply that I thought they were bribing folks. I’m saying that they spend a lot more than the other contenders in the postseason.
They did not spend a lot more than the Red Sox. Unless you expect the Yankee management to say to themselves, “You know the poor Red Sox haven’t won a World Series since Moses. Why don’t we give all our players a 25% cut in pay so that the poor Red Sox can win.”
Sure, if the Red Sox had less injuries they could have gotten farther then they did. And if horses had wings, the could fly. And I will again point you to the A’s, who spent a lot less money than, say, the Red Sox, and went a lot further.
I’d like to see that supported with some evidence, please. Montreal doesn’t seem to me to be producing that many good players, and I’d argue the Yankees’ system has produced more good ballplayers than any other.
(Before you say Pedro Martinez, he was a product of the Dodgers organization, and was acquired by the Expos in a trade.)
Green Bean read my first post. I specifically stated that I don’t have a problem with the Yankees doing whatever they can to get in the post season.
I’ve repeatedly said that I wish my team was capable of doing that, too.
I haven’t even been really railing against the Yankees so much as railing against Biggirl’s inability to see that their high payroll gives them the edge. Yes, they have excellent management. Yes, they have an excellent farm system. But it’s their payroll and the ability to retain and trade for players with almost no regard to cost that puts them over the top. But at the same time, I have explicitly stated that I don’t have a problem with the Yankees doing what they can to win. Including big spending.
Biggirl The Red Sox aren’t post season contenders. To be one, you would actually need to make it to the post season.
I’m talking about the A’s, the Mariners, and the D-backs. Yes, these teams have gone far in the post-season. Yes, their payroll isn’t as high. But guess what, the A’s and the Mariner’s still couldn’t beat the Yankees, despite that fact that both teams made personnel decisions that were just as good as the Yankees given their budgets. Maybe better, in fact. And the A’s have just as much talent that is home-grown than the Yankees do. However, they lack the budget to go out and get free agents with experience that would fill the gaps and had to rely on what was essentially a bunch of talented kids.
Give the A’s another $75 million to spend on payroll and let’s see how they do against the Yankees. Maybe it’s the same result, maybe it’s not. But if you are going to argue that the Yankees’ high payroll doesn’t give them a monumental boost (especially in this instance) then you aren’t seeing reality.
I don’t expect the Yankees to roll over and die as a favor to the rest of the league. I don’t expect the Yankees to voluntarily cut their payroll. They’d be a bunch of fucking morons if they did. Just recognize that payroll is the MAJOR reason for the Yankees’ success in the post season.
Were the Mariners unable or unwilling to spend the dough? And that goes for other teams too.
How did Arizona make it to the Series in just 4 short years?
Are Schilling and Johnson playing for nothing?
Mouthbreather
Maybe they should have spent the 25 million they gave to A-Rod on some pitching (especially since the lack of quality pitching is there biggest problem. Could of had a couple of good arms for that.
Superdude
Why doesn’t he have Randy Johnson do it? Of course then that means the Yankee pitchers can retaliate. Wouldn’t Schilling and Johnson feel relaxed on their next trip to the plate? Talk about adding pressure!
NEUROTIK, your position appears to boil down to: If an expensive team wins, it’s the money, but if an expensive team loses, it’s injuries. If having money is enough to win, then the most expensive teams should be the ones winning the most. I think you could make that argument as one over time (an argument for the salary cap), but you sure can’t make if for this season.
The fact is that other factors besides money go into the Yankee powerhouse – like a lack of injuries and like the ability to deliver in the clutch, as demonstrated in the last two nights.
Surely you can see why a person who was a Yankee fan would be affronted by the idea that her team “bought” its way into the series. Money alone is not enough; if it was, it wouldn’t be the Diamondbacks the Yankees are playing. Surely you don’t disagree with that.
Kindly delay the rhapsodizing about “Yankee magic” - and about the Diamondbacks lack of same - until the Yankees have actually, I don’t know, won the Series. Y’all are going to look pretty silly with those pronouncements if Johnson and Schilling pitch back-to-back complete game shutouts (not likely, but also not impossible given the state of the Yankees offense against Arizona’s starters in this series).
I think the point of the payroll argument isn’t that high payroll automatically equals success, nor is it that low payroll neccessarily equals lack thereof. The point is, in the Yankees particular case, finance plays a major part in the duration of their dominance. Every year, the Yankees are able to pull in a big ticket free agent that keeps them on top (Mussina, obviously, this year. Without Mussina, the Yankees are out of the division series in three games).
Plus, the Yankees are willing and able to spend many times more on scouting and signing younger players. It is this fact, most of all, that renders the argument that “oh, the Red Sox had almost the same payroll, and they don’t win all the time” invalid. The $3 million the Yankees paid Drew Henson to be in their minor league system doesn’t show up on those payroll figures Biggirl quoted. But no other team could afford to throw that kind of money on an unproven college sophomore who might well have decided to play professional football. You cite outstanding scouting, minor league development, and personnel decisions as the reasons for the Yankees continuing success; why do you think the Yankees excel in these areas? Because they just mystically transform everyone who works for them into a genius? No - they PAY hefty signing bonuses for top prospects and foreign imports and they PAY for the best scouts and the best GM in baseball.
Now, this is all perfectly fair, within the present system, but it also means that the system sucks. Baseball will not continue to thrive with a couple of teams perpetually in the World Series. It’s not “sour grapes;” it’s concern for the sport. No other sport has ever seen what we’re seeing now, because every other (major) sport has some sort of salary cap and some sort of meaningful revenue sharing (which, IMO, is what the sport really needs).
Or Maybe if they were the Yankees they would have given ARod the 25mil and then still signed Clemens and Mussina. And don’t kid yourself – If Jeter or Nomar was not a Yankee when ARod was shopping around, they would have had him.
Jodi that’s not really my argument at all. I give the Yankees full credit for mostly excellent personnel decisions, building a farm system, etc. And no, big money doesn’t necessarily mean that a team will be winning (see the Orioles a few years back). They still have to put that money to good use, which the Yankees indeed do.
I can see why a Yankee fan would be offended by my assertion that the Yankees buy their Series. But I don’t care. It’s essentially the truth. The Yankees have a lot more money than most other teams. This allows them to make a lot of the great personnel decisions that they do. Storyteller’s post is pretty much in line with what I am arguing.
No one is saying that the Yankees don’t spend their money extremely wisely. They do. And they get what they pay for. Quality, world champion teams.
An analogy would be if two people were going to race brand new cars which they buy themselves. One person has $100,000 to spend on the new car they want to race and the other has $20,000. The person with the higher “payroll” might well make an extremely poor decision and wind up with a piece of crap causing him to lose the race. But if both of the people buy the best possible choice for the amount of money they have to spend, then the person with the 100 grand to spend will win every time. Guaranteed. That’s my point. With their high payroll, the Yankees should be able to win consistently if they make intelligent decisions. A team like the A’s will probably not beat the Yankees (provided the Yankees have used their money wisely) even if they make the best decisions possible.
You see, you’re comparing the guy with $100,000 to spend with the guy with $20,000 to spend. We’re comparing two guys with $100,000 to spend. You haven’t yet addressed the fact that the two teams with payrolls that are essentially the same as the Yankees have done nothing in the post-season.
