**
You really like Bill O’Reilly, don’t you?
I fail to see how sharing a life-changing prayer is a swipe at fundamentalists. Do you think the FC’s are taking a swipe at other people when they suggest that people ask Jesus into their hearts?
And BTW, this is GD. If you want to insult me, go to the Pit.
Ben - trust me on this: your thread belongs in another forum.
Isn’t Lekatt a FC?
You have a good memory… That’s something I wish I had…uh…um…Burt?
…
Who was I talking to?
…and about what?
Which forum, and why?
**
Today, I humble myself before thee, O LORD. Let me serve you with all my heart and all my mind.
**
Does the prayer ask for that?
Yeah, you weren’t talking to me, but YES I do think FC’s occasionally take swipes at me when they suggest that I ask Jesus into my heart-especially when I’ve repeatedly told them that I already have accepted Jesus into my heart and they continue to repeat their swipe.
It’s insulting. IMO it’s also insulting when someone says they know what a real Christian is and a real Christian wouldn’t believe _____ (whatever the issue is). If the person wants to give their opinion, that’s fine, but when they seek to strip my belief away from me because it doesn’t mesh with theirs, then I get a little annoyed.
Just my 4 cents.
’
A forum on a different board.
Good night.
Ben, what is the point?
How do you mean? Do you mean that you don’t understand why anyone would post the OP, or do you not understand why anyone would bother?
How’s this one:
Lord, grant me the ability to seek the truth, so it may set me free, let me see your great bounty in the world that you have given us, and let me appreciate the wonder that exists in life alone. Let me be humble before you, and before all mankind, so they may truly be my brothers. Grant me the strength to seek wisdom and peace, to respect all, and to do unto others as I would have them do unto me.
They may not be “liars” in the sense of intentionally spreading falsehoods, but certain fundamentalist doctrines strike me (and as far as I understand what I’ve been taught, strike my Church) as perverse doctrines made up very recently. My own Church takes a rather dim view of triumphalism.
Dear Mother. I know I have your eyes and Dad’s nose and that you brought me up and nurtured me all my life. And I know that I have a birth certificate that tells me where i came from. But if any of this happens to be wrong, then show me my error and I will turn my back on you and reject you for the rest of my life.
Your son, J.
Now seriously, why would you. Dumbest question of all the dumbest.
Who said anything about rejecting God?
I find it fascinating that so many people have read so much that wasn’t there.
…Thats what I am trying to figure out.
Sorry Ben. My minor leap. Let me tiptoe more daintily. If I was to reject the things my mother taught me over the years and redefine the basis of our relationship then she would rightly consider that I had rejected her.
I’d just pray for wisdom. No ifs, ands, or buts.
Hey, it worked for Soloman.
That’s because you spoke a rather garbled mouthful that is tangential to a large number of crucial matters. I’m surprised that the debate hasn’t gotten more heated. I suspect though that it is because no one is really taking you seriously.
I’ll take you seriously Ben. There are a few premises upon which your argument is based that are wrong. What follows is my feeble attempt to unravel the mess and answer what I believe is your question.
The issue of humility
Others have been quick to point out the contradiction in your suggested prayer. It begins Today I humble myself before thee o Lord. It then piecewise begins to undermine the things which (according to the pray-er) God has aleady said. It ventures to place the arguments of others and the opinions of the person praying as of higher authority than what God has revealed. This is hardly a position of humility. If there is genuine question about what is the truth, then fine. But what you have proposed is hardly the way to seek answers.
The matter of relationship
Foundational to christian belief is the concept that it is possible to have a relationship with God. Like any relationship between two persons there are a lot of subjective matters that form part of the relationship. Things like trust, faith, a belief in the integrity of the other etc. In the case of fundamentalist christianity, these are fundamental and non-negotiable. They are shown to be true not because they are provable but because of strength of the relationship that they underpin.
Your argument is a circular one. For someone who believes in such fundamental truths to place them in such doubt, this presupposes that they have stopped believing in them and are therefore no longer a fundamentalist. My parable on my mother (whom I love) was intended to show the folly of this aspect of your argument.
The status of truth
A fundamentalist, by definition believes that there are some fundamental truths that are not negotiable. Some of course can be verified through reasoning and experience, others as I have already stated cannot. Like mathematical axioms they are, well axiomatic. Not requiring any debate. Like the existance of God for example. (If you are truly an atheist, then why are we even having this discussion?)
Truth is truth. Once it is established to does to need to verified again. Studied, by all means. Examine ourselves by the light of the truth. Absolutely. To pray “Help me see your truth O lord”, fantastic. To consider ourselves infallible, never. But to throw aside established truth in favour of the arguments and opinions of others, and in the same breath suggest to God that their opinions, being contrary to what he has already said, might actually be God’s revelation – surely that is an illogical and retrograde step. Especially concerning matters at the basis of the relationship with God: such as, who Jesus is and his role in bringing about our relationship with God.
For all my words, I don’t feel as though I have explained myself well on this point. Truth may be supported by reasoning. Truth may be supported by experience. Truth may be supported by the opinions of others. But not everything that is true will be verified through such means - especially with regards to the truths that are discovered through relationship. Quite simply that is not what reasoning, experience and opinions are for. I am not for one moment suggesting that we dispense with reasoning, but simply that we recognise its limits in terms of determining the truth. There are matters that just don’t need to be questioned. The christian position is secure and robust and not like the tumbleweed of your suggested prayer.
Now to answer the **real **questions. If you believe that creationsim is an untenable position, then think again. Ask the right questions of the right people. Do the research. Do the math. I’ll answer what I can if you wanted to email me.
But be warned. Firstly, as a historical matter, the creation evolution debate does not submit itself to the scientific method. Secondly, there is a lot of misinformation and spurious arguments around on both sides. Thirdly, you will encounter a lot of emotive and irrationally held beliefs on both sides. Fourthly, there are many (most) who have reached a certain point in the argument on one side or the other and decided to merely accept their position as one of their personal axioms. Not an unreasonable approach, but it would be better to land on the side that is actually true.
If your main question is one regarding comparative religion, then again, you will need to do some spadework. If you want to know what a certain group of christians believe and why, then you will need to humbly ask the correct questions in the correct way. You will find someone who is knowledgable and patient enough to give you the answers you need.
You mentioned that you used to be a fundamentalist christian and are now an atheist. I would dispute that second statement on the basis of the kind of questions you are raising. True atheists don’t give a rip and there aren’t actually many of them around.
So, I’ll lay a challenge to you. Are you you prepared to pray this prayer?
God, although I used to believe in you, I am unsure now and don’t know if my words will get any higher than the ceiling. But in my search for truth, I am prepared to lay aside any preconceptions I may have. If you do exist, show me how I can come to know the truth and lead me to a place where I am secure in it.
J_sum1, do you really believe that one must be a Creationist in order to be a Christian? I’m afraid that for me to become a Creationist would be to detract from the glory of God.
For the rest of you who objected to Ben’s prayer, how about this one? Could you pray it?
Actually come to think of it, I’ve got one more prayer I wonder if you’d be willing to pray:
If you wouldn’t, I’d like to know why. As I’ve said, I’ve had limited exposure to Fundamentalist Christianity, and there are things about it which I honestly don’t understand.
Respectfully,
CJ
Beautiful, CJ. I’ve always felt the worst thing about Rite II is that it makes no provision for the Prayer of Humble Access. Is the second prayer original with you?
J-sum, your point about relationships is well taken. But I’m afraid I don’t see the leap from that point to the CvE debate, and I’d like to see you expand on your thinking. I’m inclined to disagree, but I’d at least like to do so respectfully with a clearer understanding of what it is you’re saying.
And to add one other prayer into the mix:
Ben, when I was a teen Christian (semi-Fundist) in the late 1970s, i actually did pray a similar prayer.
Over twenty years later, I’m less Fundist (tho I found out in another GD thread that I’m a homophobe) & even kinda Universalist (all souls will be given every opportunity to come to Jesus, in this life or the Afterlife, even perhaps through Hell itself- and it may be that all souls actually eventually come to Jesus), so maybe the prayer was answered.
Btw, on the Creation/Evolution Q, I don’t really care, tho I lean to Old-Earth Creationism. To the extent I concede the possibility of human evolution from prehuman animals, I also consider the theory of Adamic & non-Adamic peoples (that Adam & Eve were real people who were the first to realize God as Parent & distrusted him; however, I don’t regard non-Adamics, if any still exist, as subhuman, but as humans who can become Adamics as they recognize God’s Parenthood & their calling to be His/Her trusting children, tho the ultimate step is them to become Christians- recognizing that the fullest revelation of God is in the Bible, through the Jews & ultimately as Jesus.)