I once had a pair of fundies come to my door to try to convince me to go to their church for easter. Inside of ten minutes, I had them arguing with each other. I shooed them out of the door at that point.
It has been my experience that virtually all of the missionary types that get “in your face” are not at all well-informed about their own religion. It’s quite easy to send them into a tailspin with a few well-placed questions.
**Polycarp wrote:
I’ve never made any secret of the fact that I would like to lead Esprix to the joy that my faith has brought me.**
Polycarp, my friend, I must take you to task on this statement. I believe, herein, lies the major problem that many non-Christians have with proselytizers. Two points:
The idea that because (the J/C/I) God has given you a wonderful, spiritual experience, He’ll do the same for everyeone else. Not true and I’m living proof of that. I’ve written you privately about my own, personal “born again Christian” experience and how it didn’t work for me. You seem to be assuming that what worked for you will work for him (Esprix).
Here’s the hard one. The ARROGANCE of this statement is very hard to swallow. You’re assuming, again, that your religious experience is so superior to any other religious experience, it will overwhelm any other religious experience and cause them to convert to Christianity.
Behind this is the smug arrogance that many Christians have; we have the right religion and it’s just a matter of time 'til you come over to our way of thinking. Or; there’s only one God (and it’s OUR God) you just call Him by a different name.
If you can understand what I’m getting at, then prehaps you can understand the anger and frustration felt by the non-Christians especially about proselytizing
I got it. hee hee…
while i agree with Esprix on this, both sides of the argument have to undrstand something very important about the USA:
You are allowed to have your own opinion, but you must respect the opinions of others in order to be respected.
Redtail23 Thank you very much for bringing up a good point. You would think that most people in America had been exposed to the Bible, Jesus, etc. but I can assure you that where I live (North Carolina) while most people have ‘heard’ of it, they are not familar with the teachings and lots have never had the opportunity to step inside a church. Witnessing is a delicate matter. How you are approached and how you approach others is the key. Sadly, lots of times this comes from personal experience. I too, yes I know it’s hard to believe, have at times come on a bit too strong in years past. I learned a valuable lesson. If in the course of a conversation it comes up, I do witness to others about my personal experiences. If I see that others are not interested then I stop.
You can have ‘exposure’ and still not be familar with something. If you aren’t raised in a Christian atmosphere then your exposure is limited, and that is the people that I usually run in to at times.
While my faith is personal I’m more than willing to share my experiences with others, but I’m not willing to cram it down their throats. If people are truly interested, they’ll begin to ask questions when the topic is brought up. Otherwise, I let it rest. Chosing the wrong words at the wrong time is a surefire way to turn someone the other way.
But as stated in most of the posts above, each person has their own opinion and rightly so.
Now I’ll get off the soapbox.
Next.
<rant>
Have you ever in your oh-so-right fucking holier-then-thou attitude every considered this is because they have no fucking interest in stepping inside your enormous monument to human stupidity and hatred?
I have NEVER seen an atheist come up to me and say “unless you believe what I believe about the supernatural, I will threaten you with torture”
Yet I have seen HUNDREDS of Christians do this daily, both IRL, on the Internet, and just about everywhere else.
Let me tell you something.
To all you fucking self-righteous self-absorbed ignorant assholes, let me enlighten you on something: I could care less about your opinions on my faith. Your fucking holy crusades and the hate filled outright **ignorant **decisions your pathetic little churchs have made are the cause of half the killings in this world. Your pathetic power grubbing policies have caused the deaths of innocent children who’s parents dared to worship differently ever since Jesus Christ was born.
You know what? I hate your pathetic little bullshit whine festivals about how persecuted the poor Christians are. Your whole religion insults me. The very fact of your religion insults me. Just by existing, by believe what you think is right, you are saying I am a bad person. You HAVE to, no matter how nice you are otherwise, because religion is about saying you are better then the next person because you believe differently. If it wasn’t, why would you give a damn about what another person believes? Because you want to introduce them to the joys of your religion? Bullshit. If God exists why can’t we just figure it out on our own? Why do we need people to tell us about it, to force us to conform our lives and laws to be in accordance with a religion? Because people are dickheads.
My being an atheist may announce to the world that I think religious people are a bunch of stupid ignorant sheep who can’t see past their own fat asses but it doesn’t say that I think you are morally BAD people, like your arrogant condensceding bullshit says to me.
I personally think you are an ignorant bunch of primitive fools, scared of the real world out there and hanging on to you ridiculous tribal myths for all you’re worth (collectively. Individually I love my Catholic boyfriend and grandparents very much :eek:.) But you know what? I have never once told anyone that (outside of this rant obviously). Yet your pathetic little asswhiping self-righteous ministers dare to go out and preach to the whole-fucking-world with their pathetic messages of “love” that I am worse then them because I don’t believe in the grown up version of Santa Clause.
And if I pissed off Christians here, guess what?
You pissed me off every time I was forced to recite “one nation, under God” right before studying the First Amendment in high school!
Fuck you. Fuck the assholes this last couple of weeks that have destroyed the last vestiges of my confidence in freedom of religion in fine old U.S. of A. Freedom of religion? Bullshit. No one can be free of religion until they’re DEAD!
</rant>
Ahem.
Sorry about that.
Ultress you seem like a very nice person in general and that wasn’t directed at you specifically :(… really. It was just a general people are assholes post.
(sorry to “hijack” your thread, kind of, Esprix. I really didn’t mean to do anything wrong, please don’t hurt me *criesI just needed to vent and here looked like the best place.)
puts on heat-proof outfit and hightails her way to safety whimpering in fear
No problem, Tanaqui, have a good day.
I thought it was: “If Jesus really loved me he’d swallow.”
The worst I’ve ever head over in the UK is a Jehovah’s witness-type who can be told “No thanks” without much trouble, so these discussions about truly aggressive fire-and-brimstoners always seem strange. I’m just glad I’m out of it.
Okay, what exactly is it these preachers say? I gotta say Tanaqui’s post did more than freak me out. Do they threaten to eat your children or something? What do they say that can foster an almost religious hatred in the atheists on this board. Like shorty I’ve only had experience with Jehovas witnesses (and that guy I told you about in Leicester square), all of whom seemed like very geunine people to me. So tell me, what exactly do these people say? I’d be really interested in finding out.
Thanks Poly. It’s kinda confusing to me, really. The only people who I can call preachers who I’ve come into contact with are obviously very honest, devout people. Yeah, they used to annoy me (quite a bit actually) but I’ve grown to learn that they are only doing that because they love me as a fellow human being which, after all, is kinda the point of the whole shebang, isn’t it? I also read posts on this board from people like you, Navigator and Libertarian (of course there is also the Wildest Bill factor but even he seems like a nice enough guy, just a bit misguided) who, frankly have forced me to reconsider my agnosticism (jury’s still out, btw) and since I have no knowledge of the ‘bible belt’ or anything like that it’s tough for me to picture an ‘in your face’ preacher. In the (admittedly limited) realms of my experience it’s a contradiction in terms. I was really hoping Esprix would revisit this thread to set me straight but I’m losing hope that he’ll do that so that’s why I’ve requested quotes & experiences from other people.
I see what you’re saying but we should remember that in the eyes of the preacher, Esprix obviously hasn’t read any manuals (or Satan is stopping him from reading them) and as such must be shown the truth of the gospels before he even has a chance to escape. They don’t know that Esprix has probably read the bible, they don’t know that he’s an atheist. They’re putting themselves on the line by preaching to him. Then again if they’re being assholes about it and just trying to scare monger that’s a different story. However, since I have had no experience of this type of preacher it’s difficult to truly relate, see above. BTW - I’ve lost all faith in the ‘bomb in a building’ analogy as soon as it became clear it wasn’t original to me 
Freyr, I read your response with mixed emotions.
I think I need to speak a bit about my own spiritual/intellectual life in response. First, I am very well aware that many use the faith system I subscribe to, somewhat twisted IMHO, to assault others – we’re both in agreement about that. Second, I’m convinced that, though it may not be “the only right way,” it’s at least the best, most effective way. Third, I believe in the dignity and right to make his own moral and spiritual choices of everyone. Including you, me, Esprix, and everybody else.
Having said this, I’d ask you to take note that the Person I take as Lord is on record as calling those who do so accept Him to let others know of His love, to bring them into His family. That’s my job. I differ from WB in that I believe each person is ultimately responsible for finding his or her own way through life, and that I should do nothing (barring close real-life personal relationships that make an intervention appropriate) to arrogate to myself any assault on that personal responsibility. My solution to this dilemma, so far as I can carry it out, is to show Him through word and action and convey His invitation to a feast of love, and let the chips fall where they may. Nothing else will fulfill my commission and my standard of respect for others at the same time. To be sure, I could swallow my own certitude and accept that FriendofGod or Czarcasm has a better grasp of the truth than I (in threads where both participate, that could get into some intense acrobatics! ;)). But that would not be true to myself.
If in doing this I seem in any way arrogant to you, then I sincerely and humbly ask your forgiveness.
Gomez asked:
>I gotta say Tanaqui’s post did more than freak me out. Do >they threaten to eat your children or something? What do >they say that can foster an almost religious hatred in the >atheists on this board
Here is your answer –
Polycarp said:
>“Since I know that God exists, loves me, and saved me >from Hell, I need to foster that knowledge in every other >person I possibly can – particularly since He commanded >me to do so.”
This fucking self-righteous condenscending bullshit is exactly the kind of thing that fosters this “almost religious” (good metaphor, it’s as religious as bin Laden’s crusade) hatred.
How can you even ASK why I’m insulted by this BULLSHIT? I know there are many religious people who are not complete morons, but I find it difficult to believe at some times. As I said before, I may think you are complete MORONS for believing in the adult version of Santa Claus, but do I decide you are EVIL for not believing what I believe.
If you want to believe in a god of “love” that will send me to hell for not believing in him, that’s your dam business.
But if you have the utter, complete, enormous ARROGANCE to try to CONVERT me, I will say what I think.
There is such a double standard here. The Christians can insult me by saying I’m morally wrong until the cows come home, but if I dare to say I think they are STUPID, not evil, not damned to eternal hell, but just plain stupid I’m somehow violating the first Amendment.
Fuck you.
Immigrate to some religion controlled country like Afghanistan where you’ll be free to convert everyone you meet with hot needles to the eyes.
One thing that seems to be overlooked is the fact that to Christians, the Bible is not simply the word of God given to a select few. The Bible contains truth for all of humanity. God’s laws apply to everyone, and it is the duty of those who have faith to spread the word.
I can well understand your distaste for the more vociferous and judgmental individuals or sects, especially from your perspective as a gay man, Esprix. It is unfortunate that those who profess to be Christian display such hatred and intolerance. Why would any right-thinking person react favorably to such abuse?
As Polycarp has said, we each have our own personal responsibility to seek the truth and determine for ourselves the right way to go about our lives. It is not for me to command you to change, even if you are living in a way contrary to the way I believe is right. We can even still be friends.
Let’s say I wanted to convert you to my religion. I might casually bring it up. If you made it clear that you just weren’t interested, fine. Any pushing I could do would only push you away.
If you showed any interest, I would gladly discuss with you the precepts of my faith. I imagine, based on what you have said here and elsewhere on the SDMB, that you would have some disagreements with parts of my faith. If you wanted to, I would discuss further. If not, you’re free to go at any time.
Unfortunately, not everyone is so gentle with their missionary efforts. I am as revolted by Jack Chick and Fred Phelps as you are. They are both perverting something in which I believe. (Plus, Chick thinks I’m going to hell too.)
By the way, nice straw man, Tanaqui.
I don’t think anyone here is accusing you of being morally wrong and tying to shove religion down your throat. Yes, people have said that they believe their way is the best way. Big deal. That’s why we follow any path, right? Becasue we believe it’s the best path.
I don’t think you’re going to hell just because you don’t share my beliefs. I can’t make that judgment of anyone, and I’m not going to try guess someone’s eternal fate.
In my circle of friends, there is a huge array of opinions and beliefs. Some of my best friends are staunch atheists, and probably think my faith is silly. Two things we have in common, however, is tolerance of eachother’s convictions and civility towards one another.
You’re hardly the first person on this board to make loud, offensive, unoriginal comments about Christianity. I’ve only been here a short while, and I’ve seen a fair amount. It’s just as old and tired as creationists claiming the earth is 6,000 years old.
There are professed atheists here whose opinions I value, and whose posts on religion (and other topics) I enjoy reading. While they may not believe in what I believe in, that should be no reason for me to rail against them for being “immoral,” “misguided,” or “unenlightened.”
You have committed the same fault that you ascribe to pushy proselytizers, in that you insult them based on their beliefs. Sure, this is the Pit, but I know to whom I’ll be listening–and to whom I won’t-- in the future.
Yes, this IS the Pit, and you’re free to believe whatever you want about me.
But please explain how it was a straman argument? Read the damn quote. Read what I wrote. (hey, it rhymes!)It may not be true of all christians, but obviously it is true of at least one. (and the person I quoted is -not- the only one who shares that opinion.)
And yes, I have friends of all faiths as well. Many of my closest friends/family are atheists, some are pagan, but the majority are Christians of some denomination. Like I mentioned before, do I hate them? No, but when you decide I’m going to hell for my beliefs and decide you have to announce it in my face every other minute, I think I have every right to be insulted by this. Most of the time I keep it inside, and am a polite good little godless heathen. This time I let it out.
I would never ever consider saying what I said in my rant to any of my Christian friends or anyone I know in real life. Like I said, it was just a rant in general. Yet my Christian friends have no problem in endorsing a belief that by it’s very existence announces I am a less moral person.
I realize that not all religious people believe this. However, go in any average church and they willbe preaching hell and brimestone to the none-believer. I’ve been to plenty of them. Like I said, it was a rant and this is not the place to make sane and politely reasoned arguments.
I’m sorry if I insulted you, but I think you’ll just have to live with it – just like I have to live with the President, my schools, my work places, and every other person in authority in this damn country shoving their religion down my throat every time I turn around.
I live, daily, in a country that has a leader who has publically said I cannot be a good citizen because I am atheist. I live in a country that claims to seperate church and state, yet the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem contains references to the Christian god. What do you expect me to feel? Yeah, I’m glad I live in a country that allows me to be atheist without (for the majority of time) feeling in threat of public harm. Doesn’t mean I still can’t get pissed off, though.
Tanaqui said:
Cite, please. That just doesn’t sound like the Polycarp I know (from these boards). While I do not share Poly’s concept of the Divine (or immanent, if you prefer), I have always found him to be an exemplar of what an ambassador of the concept he does adhere to should be.
Please forgive me if I seem to be stepping on your toes, but I sense from your posts on the subject a passionate anger. I, for one (and I would hazard to credit Poly with this as well), am willing to allow you whatever emotions you have. But if the anger I sense is really there, I would wish for you that it not be a destructive force to your own psyche. And, may I add, a couple of years of reading Polycarp’s posts on any topic he contributes to, could be therapeutic in that regard. It is largely due to the posts of him, and others like him, that I myself am able to view Christianity with a more placid eye, and my concept of the immanent has not been taken from me by the experience.
Let us hope that my previous post was not more sane or politely reasoned than good PIT etiquette allows…
:rolleyes:
Tanaqui you unconscionable ass. Are you just trying to be provocative or do you attend some course I don’t know about called raging prick 101? Let’s start from the beginning.
Where did he say this? Please, provide a cite. Please do it quickly because I believe, based on what I know of Polycarp from his posts, that you are quoting him out of context in order to score points. Even if it turns out that he did say that and nothing else I think you should view it in the context of some of the remarks he’s made in this thread, such as
and
Polycarp is most certainly not a fire and brimstone harbinger of eternal damnation.
Actually, I think you know this already, because I think you’ve read this thread. But I think you responded the way you did anyway because you thought it might score some points with someone as opposed to making you look rude, surly and uncivilised. You said
So, just because Poly doesn’t hide his Christian beliefs under a table to satisfy raging uber-atheists like yourself he is worthy of a comparison to Osama Bin Laden? I strongly suggest you apologise poste haste for this dirty little remark to salvage any shred of dignity and credibility you might once have had on these boards.
It’s really quite simple. I’ll do it again, watch.
ahem
Why does proseletysing annoy you so much?
I’m only asking because it doesn’t annoy me at all (at least not now) and I’ve been exposed to it on quite a few occasions. I’m open to the idea that preaching is done differently in America and I’ve asked for examples of what people say (3 times now) but still nothing. How can you blame me for still being in the dark on this?
So…what? You think you’re somehow smarter than all the primitive theists because you think you’ve found out the big mystery behind the mystery? There is no God? Well I just dare you to go into GD with that and I will laugh as the many theists with IQ point scores several times higher than your own rip you to pieces for it.
No, you judge theists as complete morons. Since you object to the actual act of judgement made on you by strangers just because of your (lack of) beliefs, I posit that your judgement of theists as morons is equally as bad as their judgement of you.
Bullshit. There is no double standard at all. Has anyone deleted your posts? Has anyone tried to censor you? No. Then your views are still protected under the first Amendment. Just because people might vocally disagree with you doesn’t mean that you are being stifled.
I’m going to have to pick you up on this one Tanaqui!
I am a Christian, yet I do not believe that this automatically makes me a more moral person than you, and the Bible does not (as far as I am aware) say this either. A person can act in a very moral way without any religious beliefs.
I do believe that my beliefs will have a beneficial effect on what happens to me whilst I live and after I die, and that your beliefs will have a non-beneficial effect. Please note: my beliefs NOT my moral behaviour. A lot of people feel strongly against what they believe the Christian faith to be, except they have a distorted view of Christianity, and I think that this may have happened here. As ultress mentioned, exposure is not the same thing as familiarity. Of course, if only we Christians could all agree on exactly what it is we believe…
I appreciate that you are having a (much needed!) rant, so I may be taking you to task for something that you posted without thinking through. I do agree with you, and Polycarp and Esprix (I haven’t forgotten this is his thread!), that if you have made your position clear, then someone continually rehashing the same old things is not going to do any good, will only entrench you even more deeply in your views, and will make them look like an idiot.
Esprix - if you do not believe in the Bible, then I may quote it to you to explain why I believe something, but it does not hold that same authority for you, and I accept that. Of course, I am not a Fundamentalist! I wish so many Christians would stop trying to convert people in the way that bothers you so much.
Polycarp and ultress have a much better way of sharing (and not forcing) their faith that few people could find offensive. Despite your strong feelings on the subject, Esprix, I think it is clear that you would not find their methods offensive, and I hope that many Christians read your comments, and learn.
Well, that’s my two cents.
I was venting (and making myself a raging bitch in general, I admit), this is the Pit, I thought part of the point was being a raging prick. 
Please also note that my post was not directed at any one person, i.e. in this forum. I posted my original post late at night :eek: and re-reading I notice I made it seem as though I said Polycarp was endorsing the quote I attributed to him. I am very, very sorry Polycarp, as this obviously was not the case and I hope you accept my sincere apologies. 
The post in question was actually Polycarp’s analyzation (is that a word?) of the thoughts going through many Christians minds. While Polycarp did not endorse these views himself, I HAVE seen many Christians who do, and those were the ones I was ranting at, not anyone on this message board in particular :eek:.
Again I do apologize to Polycarp.
Uh, I was in no way comparing Polycarp to bin Laden, I was (rather ineptly, obviously) trying to make the point that religious certainty is NOT neccessarily a Good Thing. The reason I was making that point is because some people make the argument that atheism is really a religion, just, you know, more satanic. I realize who ever it was who said that originally was almost certainly not making that point, but it was a cheap shot I was unable to resist. :eek: Obviously I am very bad at being subtle and I am sorry if I was interpreted wrong.
I thought I told you that in my rant. :eek: If you don’t understand I don’t think there’s anything more I can say. I am definitely not the most eloquent person on the board.
Do I think I’m smarter? Not in particular. I freely admit that I am definitely not the sharpest knife in the box and I have no intention of going into GD, why? Because as I said before this was a PIT rant, a place as I see it, to voice your annoyance about things that well, annoy you. That’s why I wouldn’t go into GD - I wouldn’t voice these opinions anywhere else, because I do have respect for religious people (though obviously my rant didn’t make it seem that way) and unlike most of the debates in GD, I have no interest in “converting” Christians to atheism. They can believe whatever they want, and I hope it makes them happy, because it’s pretty depressing to believe that no one is actually out there with your deceased relatives/friends waiting to escort you to your reward!
Actually I am slightly confused about what I meant on this count but I think it was in reference to Polycarp’s post again. You can find his post under the thread ‘dippy christian shit’ that was originally started by Irishman I believe. (I keep losing track of the stupid thread, argh.)
Anyways, the OP was about some Christian groups on the telly announcing “everyone should pray at this time” or some nonsense of other. Polycarp made a comment along the lines of “freedom of religion gives us both the right to express our views” and my venting mind took it and ran with it. :eek:
Anyways, this is rather pointless, but I just wanted to apologize to Polycarp again for my stupidity!
(Hah, I have finally mastered the art of quoting! Sorry for my icky-looking quotes before.)
**Polycarp wrote:
If in doing this I seem in any way arrogant to you, then I sincerely and humbly ask your forgiveness.**
No need to ask for forgiveness, Polycarp, it was given before you even thought to ask. It’s not YOU, personally, that I’m angry and frustrated with but the whole of Christianity and its long history of casting the debate on theology as either OUR God or NOTHING (implying non-existence, Hell or worse).
In the 18 centuries that Christianity has been a dominant force in western Europe (assuming a starting point of Emperor Constantine’s conversion in 300 CE), I’ve read about more atrocities committed in the name of saving the souls of the heathens/Pagans/Unbelievers than just about any other single force. Assuredly there were other reasons than simply conversions, money, land, and other secular forces for example, but they were often covered up in the name of saving souls.
By casting the debate in completely black and white terms (you’re either saved or damned) Christianity has done some pretty ugly things. The problem is those same reasons are still being used today and sometimes with the same results.
Isn’t time Christianity re-consider its position and realise repeating the same old arguments will simply repeat the same old mistakes?