While I’m not a big proponent of the Eurabia theory or that the Islamist theocrats will actually take over the European continent, will at the same time increasing influx of populations from socially conservative cultures-not just Muslim/Middle Eastern but Africans and Asiatics too start to erode Europe’s traditional reputation of social liberalism? Might America actually become far more socially liberal than such places as Amsterdam or Stockholm?
Why not the other way around - why not have increased exposure to social liberalism erode the conservatism both in the immigrant communities and the home regions they still keep in contact with? The key is social integration.
Anyway, many European Muslim immigrants come from countries that aren’t so socially conservative, actually - Turkey, for instance.
This pre-supposes America isn’t also receiving immigrants from more socially-conservative regions, which is not, I think, the case.
And no, America’s never going to be more socially liberal than Western Europe, not as overall, not as long as the religiosity ratio is skewed America-wards.
Does anyone have data on social attitudes of immigrants and immigrant descendants from the first generation to say, the third?
It wouldn’t at all be surprising if the first generation is socially illiberal, the second one less so and the third one not very much at all, only associating with superficial elements (food, clothes, holidays) while leaving the attitudes of the old country behind.
Which, for whatever reason, is not happening the way it should.
And yet… They’re still socially conservative and commonly aggressive about it.
Yeah, I don’t think I’m being racist by decrying the immigration of islamic and turkish values into europe. We’re going a direction that I don’t think is good.
I would say we’ve so far been confident the key was cheap television, cheaper beer and readily available porn but FINE, I suppose we could give your way a try one of these days :).
It’s just wag really, but yes second and generations immigrants (though if they’re second or third generation, by def, they’re not immigrants. At least in jus soli countries, but that’s the commonly used term) do shed some of the old traditions away.
The thing is when you got disenfranchised youth with an ethnic background, some tend to idealize the “old country” and many of its fine old traditions. Except, often, even in the old country, the traditions arent as strict or as retarded, it’s a reconstruction. And you might very well have young second or third immigrants that are far fare more conservative than what traditionalists in the old country would be. A good example of that is how gays are treated.
Actually Turkey has a worrying trend of Islamization in recent years-it is moving away from NATO and Israel towards trying to gain the confidence of other Middle Eastern countries.
Well Hispanics are rather more politically active than Muslims and largely integrated into the Democratic Party via the use of the illegal card.
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Depends on the part of Europe-Germany legalize abortion only in 1990 and require counseling before a woman gets one and its banned in all of Ireland.
Well in Europe some of the anti-immigrant people are otherwise quite socially liberal/socialist-like the murdered Pim Fortuyn of the Netherlands for example who was homosexual.
The fact that he was homosexual has little to do with a presuppsoed liberalness. The far right has often had homosexual leaders. Fortuyn is supposed to have focused exclusively on anti-immigration and not much on the rest of the things the far right usually fights for. Jorg Haider, on the other hand, had all the regular talking points of the far right, and he was gay as hell.
I’ve no doubt there are parts of the US that are already as liberal if not more liberal than either of those cities. And you can find plenty of areas in most European countries where people aren’t socially liberal.
Although I agree with your point that there is liberalization of values in immigrants, I just want to say that much of Turkey is socially conservative. This is especially true when considering the countries they are immigrating to. The key thing is they are born into a tradition of democracy which they are able to appreciate and respect in the other European countries.
Our primary group of immigrants from Latin America are socially conservative. They are voting democratic because the democrats speak to the issues they care about the most and that happens to not be, currently, social issues.
Considering that NATO installations designed to warn against Iran have been approved in Turkey, and that Turkey has supported all NATO and EU positions in the Arab Spring, you couldn’t be more wrong. It’s almost like you are equating a falling out with Israel as a falling out with Western values. Reality is a little more nuanced than that.
I don’t know about Stockholm specifically, but Sweden generally really isn’t very socially liberal. It tends to favour zero tolerance approaches to what it deems social ills (commercial sex, drug use etc).
Sorry, meant to also say - that’s nothing to do with the influence of Muslim immigrants, the native/ethnic Swedes came up with their approach to these issues on their own.
While it would be nice if you’re right, I wouldn’t be so sanguine. A pretty hard-core islamic party* has taken over and is definitely moving in the direction of Iran, if maybe not so far that way. It’s not all about Israel which they don’t care about except to the degree that poking it gives them props in the Mid East. I’ve heard more worrying reports about them slowly kneecapping all opposition, neutralizing the military and the media, which I suspect will not turn out well for the average Turk.
I don’t like to use the terms Left/Right outside of anty individual country. 'Cuz it does not mean the same things in Holland and the U.S. and Turkey and China.
This party you are discussing, the one you can’t name - AKP - has not “take over”, they won elections - like in all the other democracies. You know you have a problem when even your phrasing of the events sounds ignorant.
I bet you can’t find a cite to support your statements. Especially that shitty vague one about “moving in the direction of Iran”. You think Iran is thrilled about Turkish policies toward Syria?
On the other hand you can look up Turkey’s NATO affiliated training mission in Afghanistan, it allowing us to use their airspace for Iraq, their PM vocally supporting secular democracy in all the Arab Spring countries he visited, their full support for sanctions against Syria, and their blocking of Iranian weapons shipments to Syria. This is all in addition to the complete falling in line with every stance by NATO.
Domestically - how are they kneecapping opposition? Their opposition kneecaps themselves by acting like directionless idiots. How is subjugating the military to civilian control worrying in a democracy? About the only decent criticism you pointed out is in regards to the media. What a pile of ignorance, you just can’t trust the Muslim version of the Republican party can you?
Wherever you get your information is an ignorant place that you should avoid for the rest of your life. I’m not joking, it is seriously misinforming you.
You know what’s good for the average Turk? A fucking job. Go track the falling unemployment rate in Turkey while every country around it is imploding.
Well, Mr. Inbred, apart from a long list of insults, you provide no information or anything whatsoever refuting me. You pretend I cannot name the AKp because I did not. You libelled me multiple times, and generally followed up by using the name of a prominent American political party as an insult, which leads me to suspect you’re simply being aggro just because.
Point the First: Historically, a number of parties have come to power democratically… and then used that power to immediately undermine democracy. The current Turkish government has attacked a free press, possibly faked evidence to undercut the military (a bastion of secularism), and is openly Islamist.
Point the Second: Turkey, despite having no pervious interest, has suddenly become unusually hostile to Israel, including supporting the fake “protesters” who were moving armaments into Gaza.
Point the third: As mentioned, Turkey’s government is using dubious evidence to charge numerous military officers, which is what led to a resignation of top generals. This post sums up the issues, though naturally it’s been a while.
Since you accepted (and then naturally ignored) the fact that the Turkish government has been leaning with a heavy hand on the media, I will pass that buy and not hammer you with it.
I suppose I probably shoudl avoid all news media and making up my own mind about things. It would be much easier to simply ignore all the issues. Or even better, I could watch My Little Pony, since that seems to be where you get your information, even if you get your attitude from reading The Incredible Hulk.