Gaiman's Lucifer v Carey's Lucifer v Black's Lucifer v Kadrey's Lucifer (Vertigo Comics)

Cafe Society
1

Spoilers ahoy.

For those of you who have read Neil Gaiman’s The Sandman, you’d be entirely familiar with the character Lucifer. Lucifer is indeed the devil, and plays a pivotal role in the comic (there is an argument that Lucifer is actually responsible for Dream’s death).

It is now, as noted in a separate thread on this board, a TV series which I understand (without having watched it) vaguely resembles the comic book character.

The first appearance of Lucifer under Gaiman’s penmanship had the character intentionally resembling early 70s David Bowie, a languid creature, and part of a triumvirate of rulers of Hell. There has been reports that Gaiman expressly wanted Lucifer to be depicted as a dandyish Bowie.

Lucifer is transformed by his next appearance in *The Sandman *into someone quite a lot more intense. The character at this point sounds like a tired law firm partner. Lucifer shuts up hell, having had enough of the role, and hands the key to hell to Dream. Subsequent appearances of Lucifer in *The Sandman *depict Lucifer as an interested bystander, to the crescendo of events, for example, attending Dream’s funeral.

Writer Mike Carey’s first foray into comics was to script at first, a masterful limited series, which lead to a monthly Lucifer spin-off series. Carey found his voice around four issues into the monthly series, casting Lucifer as a ruthless, arrogant, utterly driven, Miltonian character. I was a big fan of this series. It had its hiccups, but the character’s Machiavellian tone was compelling. Lucifer wasn’t a villain: the character was the force of nature which lit the stars upon creation of the cosmos. Some of the script emphasised that: “When he raises his hand to strike, the stars dim.” Lucifer was second only to God, and at times a petulant brat, with many axes to grind and unstoppable will to fuel his agendas.

The series ended with Lucifer having a inconclusive discussion with his father, handing over his power to his sometimes consort Mazikeen, and sailing out into white nothingness, apparently devoid of purpose.

So I was initially excited to read that Lucifer was returning, written by Holly Black: Return of the Morningstar - World Comic Book Review

The new series hasn’t been as epic, however, and *Lucifer *#13 in particular was a downer with mischaracterisation: see this review -

A new writer, Richard Kadrey, is now in charge. I haven’t read his new stories, but they seem to be following Carey’s map, if this review is correct: Biblical Grandeur: Lucifer #14-15 (Review) - World Comic Book Review

I’d be interested for anyone’s views on how the series is tracking now, in deciding whether or not to re-commit to the series.

I’d also be interested in:

a. views on whether this is an indicia of Vertigo Comics’ prevailing failure of imagination, needing to revive both this title and Fables (as Ever After);
b. assessments of Carey’s Lucifer more generally.

2

Richard Kadrey writes a terrific Lucifer in his Sandman Slim series.

3

Aha! Thanks. I did not know that Kadrey was a writer outside of comic books. I checked his profile on Wikipedia. It seems like I need to track down Metrophage.

4

Couple things:

First off, the only one responsible for Dream’s death is Dream.

Second, the big takeaway from Carey’s Lucifer series is that Lucifer is the embodiment of WILL. Michael had the ability to create the cosmos but it took Lucifer’s will to make it happen. You take someone with that sort of power and will and leave him be he’s going to get up to something. Revealing that character trait (flaw?) is what Carey was really illustrating.

5

Indeed. Gaiman’s own description of the series is “The Lord of Dreams learns that one must change or die, and makes his decision.”

I’ve always thought that Carey’s Lucifer was more about free will - his refusal to suffer any constraint on his action is so extreme that he ends the series literally flying off into endless Nothing with the prospect of nothing for the remainder of his immortal existence, rather than suffer any more predestiny from omniscient Dad.

6

Jonathan Chance:

He may bear some degree of responsibility by his reactions to events, but the prime actor(s) in Dream’s death is the party or parties responsible for the kidnapping of Daniel Hall. Loki and Puck did the actual deed, but it’s implied that they were acting on someone else’s orders or, at least, were manipulated by another into doing it.

7

I really thought that Carey’s run on the series was a fantastic examination of free will. His Lucifer ended up saving the universe (on a few occasions) and more than one person, but only to save his own ass or help himself in some way. His complete solipsism was more monstrous than out-and-out cackling villainy. And, of course, the end where he accepts becoming/embracing nothingness rather than have to acknowledge that he is a created being was perfect.

So it’s sort of sad that Vertigo decided to undo that and restart the series. Although I am a fan of Sandman Slim I haven’t really been wanting to check it out.

8

Yes. They were acting on Dream’s orders. Dream had told Loki he’d owe him for his freedom from captivity, so he sent Loki to capture Daniel. Loki being Loki, couldn’t stand obeying anyone and took off with Daniel, requiring Dream to send the Corinthian to track them down. Puck may have joined up at Loki’s behest, or at Dream’s, or just for the lulz (or, all of 'em).

Dream set up his own death, from start to finish. Death even calls him out on doing it in their last conversation.

9

Exactly. The only counter argument I might make was that Desire was also responsible because it was something she desired. “Someday I will make him spill Family blood”.

Lucifer said he would do it…but then obviously got bored with the notion. Maybe half-assedly he thought giving Dream the Key to Hell would destroy Dream. That’s all I got on that.

10

IIRC, when he handed over the key to Hell, Lucifer told Dream that the key might destroy him or it might not, but either way wouldn’t do him any favors.

Lucifer also did seem to know something about the whole Dream situation later, when Remiel came to visit at the bar, but then they got crossways and nothing ever got resolved with that as far as I remember. This was a difference between Carey’s take on the character and Gaiman’s - in Sandman, Lucifer was basically too bored to be arsed to do anything really, but in Lucifer if he had sworn to destroy somebody then he’d make time in his schedule.

11

Sandman Slim is a hoot, like a filthy drunk unshaven chain-smoking Dresden Files, except with a consistent eschatology and much better prose.

12

Lightray:

I’ve heard that theory, but it makes no sense to me. During the “Kindly Ones”, Dream attempts to defend himself. He knows he is being assaulted, and says he’ll be safe as long as he’s in the Dreaming, and when Nuala summons him away, he at first tries to tell her no (but eventually finds himself bound by his promise to her).

While his subconscious desire to die may have been why he was willing to subject himself to the Furies’ power by agreeing to kill Orpheus (which is how I interpreted Death’s statement), his actions during that storyline make no sense in the context of him ACTIVELY setting his death in motion.

13

Another recommendation for Sandman Slim, and also for Kadrey’s new series (starting with The Everything Box and continuing with The Wrong Dead Guy, which I believe releases this month). I love Dresden, too–IMO the Dresden stories are more entertaining overall, but the Sandman Slim ones are better written from a technical standpoint. Both are quite good. And I love Sandman Slim’s version of Lucifer.

14

However, when Desire is later commiserating with Despair, Desire’s complaint is that he/she wasn’t actually responsible for bringing the Furies down upon Dream’s head as he/she had desired to do.

You “heard that theory” because that’s what Loki tells Matthew and the Corinthian when they catch up to them. It’s actual text.

Dream tells Nuala that he could undo the damage done by the Furies to the Dreaming if he remained there, not that he would be “safe”.

His killing Orpheus came about because he agreed to seek Destruction with Delirium. The see Destruction part of that is intended to be interpreted both literally and figuratively - which Despair alludes to, when she tells Desire that no one seeks out Destruction and comes back unscathed. There are, in fact, multiple references to Dream seeking his own death throughout the series, not just from Death.

And, of course, it’s how Gaiman himself describes the series.

15

Dresden kinda stalls for me when Jim Butcher tries to incorporate angels, demons and deities; I don’t think he has it quite clear in his mind who can do what, and so his angels are white-hat goodies and his demons are goatee-stroking baddies. Richard Kadrey loves his Gnosticism, and so his small-g god is, as Al Pacino said, an absentee landlord (or at least parts of him are), Lucifer is a job description, and his angels are as likely to be Heaven’s stormtroopers as his devils are to be decent enough guys just trying to do a thankless job. It’s a far more shaded and consistent bit of world-building than the Dresden Files’ mythology rummage sale.

16

It wasn’t a desire to die, it was a desire to change. But Dream took his duties too seriously to be able to just resign like Destruction did, there had to be a Dream, and so he set in train the events which created and groomed Daniel, as well as ensuring that the Kindly Ones had to take Dream himself off the board. He was manipulating everything and everybody, as Loki finally came to realise when he was chained in the cavern again.

17

Yes, agreed completely. But in a purely entertainment sense, Kadrey sometimes has a little trouble sticking the endings (of the Sandman Slim books I’ve read, some of the endings are weak and some are drawn out far past when they should be). His prose is wonderful and I’m willing to overlook weak endings for it, but Dresden provides (for me, at least) more of an edge-of-the-seat thrill ride with bigger punch finales. They’re different sorts of takes on the same genre, and both are good in their own way.

18

Except, as Gaiman explained in SANDMAN: OVERTURE,

[spoiler]Desire, knowing that s/he wouldn’t remember doing so, saved existence and set in motion the event that got Dream confined for decades – with the world going to hell while Dream was unable to fulfill his duties, locked up as he was by folks who hadn’t even been gunning for him. Because the ultimate dream power is to retroactively write a desire into reality itself (as in that story with the cats) which temporarily exhausts Dream while getting a win for Desire.

Assuming that’s why Dream decided he should pick a successor and die – with Dream knowing it was Desire who saved his life when he would’ve failed, and then posed as him to manipulate him into (a) getting the job done, thereby (b) weakening himself until he couldn’t resist hedge magic – then, sure, Desire would eventually talk about not being responsible; but s/he in fact got what s/he desired, sure as s/he had known s/he’d no longer recall having done so.[/spoiler]

19

To circle back to the thread’s actual topic: Lucifer showed up in Sandman to be there as an example that Dream didn’t have to keep doing his job. When we later find out that Destruction walked out on his job, that just reinforces Lucifer’s walking off.

Lucifer (and Destruction, of course) were able to change; Dream wasn’t.

There’s a kind of coda to that at the end of Carey’s run on Lucifer - Lucifer meets with the new Dream/Daniel, and mentions his predecessor always approached problems like a corkscrew instead of like a stiletto. When Dream agrees to be straightforward, Lucifer compliments him on learning to change.

Of course, by that point we know that Lucifer had flown off into nothing, rather than letting himself change enough to get along with his Creator.

20

Not going to spoiler this to The Other Waldo Pepper, since it doesn’t spoil anything in Overture, only from the core books.

I think we’re safe in assuming that Dream wanted to die because he was lonely - one of the things hammered home throughout Sandman was how disastrous his love affairs were: Nada, Calliope, Alianora, Thessaly, plus the comments about all of those by his family and the Dream denizens. He was just terrible at relationships, yet kept trying for them despite past experience. In the end, I think that Hob was his only real friend. He knew he’d continue making a mess of things, and made some efforts to change with Nada and Orpheus, but in the end couldn’t bring himself to change more.

Now, maybe I can see blaming Desire because Dream wanted some sort of relationship - in Endless Nights he at least thinks Desire had something to do with his getting together with Killala. And with getting apart from her, of course.