She isn’t scheming with the Queen-to-be, she’s going along with the latter’s schemes because it will land her a perfect sister and a perfect husband, like in her fairy tales.
Similarly, she only reject littlefinger’s offer to escape for the same reason (she wants to stay and marry Loras), IMO, not because she’s warry of him.
Somehow, I just only realized, following Karstark decapitation scene, and having rewatched the episode where Robert’s die, that Joffrey’s decision to have Ned decapitated is perfectly justified and possibly even the correct decision to take.
Objectively, from Joffrey’s point of view, Ned is only a high officer of the court who seized the opportunity of Robert’s death to stage a coup (and presumably seize the power for himself or one of his ally). That’s way worst that just murdering two young prisoners out of revenge. And do you really want to set the precedent that nobles doing such a thing can get away with their life? It will cause a war, but it might very well be worth it to set an example (killing the plotter and stripping his heirs of all lands and titles).
Of course, it’s not the real reason why Joffrey made this decision, and we knows that Ned is a good guy and had honourable intents. But Joffrey doesn’t and probably isn’t even familiar with Ned’s reputation. When I rethink the situation, I’d probably have had Ned executed too. Dad’s body isn’t even cold, and this guy tries to throw me (the legitimate heir) and Mom in a jail (presumably before killing us). The hell with mercy! That’s war! And I would definitely handsomely reward the captain of the city watch who stayed faithful to me.
And by the way, regarding the captain of the watch, he ends up being punished by Tyrion, while objectively, he did his duty by betraying Ned. Why should he side with a guy who arbitrarily claims the king’s heir is illegitimate (and he might not even know that Ed is claiming such a thing). Of course, we know that he’s a bad and corrupt guy, and a creature of Cersei (the only reason why he’s sent to the wall, actually), but objectively he did the right thing and was rightly rewarded.
Somehow, I never had thought that through.
But she hasn’t yet been informed that they had been killed by Theon and that their charred bodies had been displayed, right?
How comes Tiwyn would know about that while Catelyn wouldn’t?
ETA : I just thought about an explanation for this, but believe it would be spoiler territory to mention it. However, is there a “show only” explanation for this situation that I might have missed?
Yes, sounds like the same place. I’ve been voyeuristically reading their unspoiled thread from the start. It’s fascinating reading, though I suspect a few secret bookreaders have snuck in here and there and polluted things a bit.
The realm is full of individuals and families who fought on the wrong side of Robert’s rebellion – Pycelle, Varys, the Tyrells, Balon Greyjoy, etc. Even the Lannisters themselves were of questionable loyalty.
And Tywin is carefully trying to win various anti-Lannister factions to his side. To the extent that a high-ranking nobleman has demonstrated a change of heart, it is in the interest of the crown to embrace him, not based on whether he individually “deserves” punishment, but because after a rebellion, if someone doesn’t start forgiving and forgetting, then the rebellion never ends, short of genocide.
Joffrey’s mistake is a strategic one, forgetting that a king’s interest is in long-term peace, not in individual punishment.
There was a scene in which Robb told Catelyn the news from Winterfell.
What “place” are you talking about? I know there is a rule against starting cross-board wars, but there is no rule that says you can’t mention other boards, so far as I know.
So here’s my question. Who was the guy who got run through when Karstark broke into the boys cell? A guard is my guess, due to the sound of fighting before the door is opened. Personally, I’d think that Robb would be more upset about the murder of one or more of his soldiers by Karstark and his men. While both “sets” of murders could’ve earned them death, perhaps it would’ve been more palatable to his forces if it was carried out as punishment for killing fellow soldiers doing their duty.
The Lannisters already had a deal with Ned, he would admit his treason, admit Joffrey is the rightful king and go to the wall. That would’ve been a total victory for them. Decapitating him was a horrible mistake.
It’s the televisionwithoutpity forum, a thread called “Completely Unspoiled Speculation” I wasn’t being deliberately cagey, just didn’t realize others might be interested in it. With that said, they do take a very hard-line about book spoilers, and we’ve had trouble here in the past keeping the spoilers out, so please everyone be mindful of that, and no board-war should result.
Yes, prior to that, Ned was already willing to die for his honor. But the Lannisters didn’t want to just execute him. Getting Ned to agree to the deal was not because they were being nice to Ned, but because they needed his agreement to avoid a civil war. Joffrey’s undermining of that deal bought the Lannisters a whole boatload of trouble they didn’t want.
I spoiler-boxed this post of alphaboi’s because it was reported as a spoiler. I don’t watch the show, so I don’t know … hope this helps
Murdering the guard was mentioned. However, killing kids - even enemy kids was a greater crime than killing same-team guards.
I just re-watched from the squire waking up to the beheading and didn’t hear any mention of anyone other than the Lannister boys being murdered.
As for the killing of “kids”, we’re a little hung up on modern morality I think. A medieval squire accompanied his knight to the battlefield and was a legitimate target during warfare. During the discussion of “first kills” with king Robert, Barristan Selmy and Jamie Lannister it was mentioned that he killed his first man in combat while only a squire and just 15 years old.
Yeah, the ages of those kids did not match the actors they chose to play them. They wanted to call them squires captured in battle but they looked like little kids smaller than Bran.
I checked out a few pages of that thread. Some of the speculation is so spot on that it makes me wonder whether there are some moles in there. Having read the strict rules, I’m staying out if it of course.
When Jaqen offered Arya her three kills, he said it was because the Red God (same as the lord of light, right?) demanded that life by paid for with death. Which makes me wonder if something is dying to bring back Lord Beric.
They looked older than Bran to me. In any case I think it was not unusual for squires to start very young.
I wished they’d had fleshed out Robb’s decision a little more. Robb is one of the few characters who isn’t deeply flawed and, well, a dick. He was an honorable man like his father, but, not quite so rigid as far as that honor goes. So it makes me wonder why he rejected his family’s sound advice. They made an obvious and good case as to why to keep Karstark alive. This episode revolved around Ned Stark indirectly, so was it Ned’s honor-above-all ghost that influenced Robb? Was it ego, when the guy basically dared Robb to execute him?
After a successful early run, shit is going downhill really fast for Robb. He’s got two factions within his domain quite pissed at him (the Freys and the Karstarks), the loyalty of the Boltons is under question (we’re still not sure what happened to Winterfell). And we’ve had a lot of story time lately in one form or another dedicated to the idea of defecting to the winning side when things are looking grim. Robb seems ripe for a betrayal. Which sucks, I guess, since it’s kind of nice to have a relatively good guy to contrast with everyone else.
He also lost the north to the iron men and his best prisoner to moms stupidity.