I’ll concur that I don’t see why some people seem to think that Jaime forcing himself on Cersei is worse than Jaime headbutting that little cousin who hero worshiped him to death as part of a diversion. As another poster noted, Jaime isn’t 100 percent evil, but he is often a violent and selfish man.
I also think it’s worth noting that people in Westeros have very different views on sex and rape than people in contemporary Western cultures do. In Westeros people aren’t supposed to have sex with who they want; they’re supposed to have sex with the marriage partner selected for them by their parents.
Well, Sansa is the last heir to the Northern kingdom (as far as most people know). That’s why Tywin put the kibosh on her wedding into the Tyrell clan.
That’s a fair point, but it would suggest that it’s a bit tricky to identify rape by seeing it on the television, wouldn’t it? So people resort to the “if the woman says no” rule to determine that Cersei was raped–but that may or may not be true at this point, at least if we give her the agency to determine for herself if she was or not. And given the importance that Marley23 and others have given to the question of character development, this is a bit of a problem: do we now see Jaime with different eyes than before because *we *think it’s rape, or do we not, because *she *thinks it’s not?
Sticking solely to the in-world perspective, I don’t think it’s out of character for Jamie to do what he did, whether or not either of them thought of it as rape. Jamie has changed and is changing big there’s no guarantee that he’s going to change on any particular manner, and his change should certainly not be subject to comparison with our real-life, modern values.
Who knows, perhaps he eventually will become a perfectly moral and ethical human being except for the fact that he keeps taping his sister? That’s certainly a plausible outcome, especially on a context in which the people around him might not consider it rape.
In any case, the incest aspect of it is already condemned by society and that doesn’t seem to bother him.
I don’t think we really know what Tywin’s motives are right now. Does he think Tyrion did it? If so, he might want to get Tyrion convicted as quickly as possibly both for family vengeance and so that the kingdom can move on. Alternatively, he might have been involved in the murder in the first place, and figure this is a good chance to get rid of someone who has been a pain in his ass for years. Alternatively, he might NOT be involved in trying to get Tyrion found guilty as quickly as possible, although it’s a bit hard to imagine something like that going on without him knowing about it. Alternatively, he might be using the entire situation as a way to hatch other plans entirely (ie, Joffrey is dead, now’s a great time to make a new alliance with the Dornish).
Felt sorry for the little kid whose village was attacked and whose parents were eaten (will he become Jon Snow’s new sidekick?). Also felt sorry for the poor farmer and his daughter who took in the Hound and Arya for the night. Loved Davos and Stannis’s daughter talking together (surprised no one’s yet mentioned the Monty Python shoutout of “K-nigget” - c’mon!). Danys’s champion taking down the city’s champion with a flung knife and then one casual swing of his sword was pretty cool. Also cool to see Tywin tutoring his grandson, the new (less sociopathic and and probably more pliable) king, and in trying to win over Oberyn to an alliance of convenience, if not friendship. I agree that Sam and Gilly aren’t especially interesting; moving her from Castle Black to the local whorehouse might just be out of the frying pan, into the fire.
In the U.S. in 2014, Jaime’s conduct pretty clearly would be rape. In Westeros during the reign of King Tommen, maybe not. Might certainly seems to make right in much of their social dealings. Jaime and Cersei’s relationship is really, really messed up, and it’s possible she didn’t use their equivalent of a safe word (if they even have one). Jaime had been though hell and back for his true love, only to have her reject him and even unfairly blame him. He is not a nice man, although he’s intermittently tried to become a better one. There, in the sept, having been asked to kill his only brother, it seemed to me that his disgust, anger, frustration, grief and sexual drive overwhelmed him. Doesn’t excuse what he did, but I do think it explains it.
Tywin seems to be universally respected (both in-story and here in real life) as the craftiest player of the game, two steps ahead of everybody else. But he has a blind spot concerning his son, who he doesn’t recognize as the only other person in the freakin’ continent who can keep up with him mentally. This either (a) makes him a complex, realistic character or (b) is a flaw in GRRM’s story-telling. Can’t decide which.
Somewhere up there someone said they didn’t understand why everyone is saying Tywin hates his son, Tryion. There was a scene last season after the battle of Blackwater when Tywin comes to King’s Landing to take over has Hand where he totally guts poor Tyrion. He tells him he hates him and blames him for his mother’s death and that he would never, ever be Lord of Castle Rock because he’s a blot on the Lannister name.
The next couple of episodes will clear this up one way or another, I think. Cersei is in really bad shape herself, but we should at least find out how she feels about what happened. Jaime probably won’t be in her good graces as such, but if she treats it as something that was basically consensual, then that’s what it was and I’ll just accept that it didn’t look to an outside viewer the way the director and producers thought it did. And if she treats it as nonconsensual and is angry at Jaime for not listening to her, than we’ll know how she feels.
I think the core of the outrage here, much as I hate using that word, is that we got a sense that Jaime had become a better person during the third season and a rape runs totally counter to that. At the beginning of the show he was a golden boy (sorry) and he had all the depth of character you’d expect. He was an incredibly selfish guy and thought nothing of pushing a young boy out a tower window. During season three he suffered through all kinds of hardships and at least sometimes he appeared to do the right thing or learn some perspective. So maybe we as viewers were tempted to think he’d become a good person, and maybe we made too much of some very small gestures. He might be a little better than the man he was, but did he really become that much better? He also endured a great deal of trauma and even if he improved marginally as a human being, that would contribute to his problems because I think you can see he is lost and unsure of his purpose. He’ll never be the swordsman he was, and he’s really useless as a Kings Guard but he can’t admit it. Then on top of that his son is murdered right in front of him. So I think it’s easy to understand why people think this came out of nowhere. Did it? I don’t know, because I don’t know what the show thinks happened.
Does a husband forcing himself on his wife constitute rape by Westeros standards? I suspect that’s more of his “marital right” in this society regardless of how repugnant we find that by modern standards. Surely if we hold this as rape, then the bedding ceremony that is standard practice at noble weddings is also rape - not only does the bride have no say in the matter, but it also takes place in front of wedding guests. And clearly Jaime and Cersei consider themselves husband and wife, so I doubt either considered this act to be rape, though I did find watching it uncomfortable on many levels.
One thing not mentioned about Jaime’s mindset is how completely emasculated he has been. His sense of worth was derived from his sword hand and his love for his sister (and saving Kings Landing from the Mad King but he can’t really talk about that because, Kingslayer). So his dismemberment is analogous to Theon’s, and much more visible, and occurred at the hands of someone far beneath him on every level. But at least he had Cersei to keep him going, the thought of being reunited with her giving him reason to live. Only she completely shuts him down when he returns and their son the Shit King openly mocks him. So as this event unfolds, I get Jaime saying “I don’t care” whether it’s about being walked in on or about Cersei’s objections or even about the stench pouring Joff’s corpse; he’s finally found something that makes him feel like Jaime Fucking Lannister again, and nothing in the world is going to keep him from it. Not saying I agree with it or justifying his actions, but his actions are completely in character and consistent with the torturous journey he’s been on.
It’s rape in that rape is non-consensual sex (Tyrion - who some might think has real-world morality that doesn’t entirely mesh with Westerosi standards, but that is beside the point - acknowledges that to force sex on Sansa would be rape in his conversation with his father). But I highly doubt that it would be rape as in a crime.
As hateable as the Lannisters are, I’ve come to appreciate Tywin’s heartless rationality. He’s always a dick but he is not always wrong, especially if you grant him his belief in the importance of preserving the family line in the world he lives in. What he said to Tommen certainly made its own sense. One of the minor tragedies in the show is the relationships of the Lannister siblings. Imagine being raised by that guy and you can kind of understand how Jaime and Cersei became a couple. It makes it that much sadder that they both have such a bad relationship with Tyrion, which is the only other person who knows what they went through.
It seems believable to me. And as smart as Tyrion is, you might be overlooking Littlefinger and Varys and Olenna Tyrell.
I agree. I’d give even odds she’s pissed at Jaime, but not because she feels violated. More because he’s clearly not going to play the malleable protector of “the things I do for love”-times. So I’d say she’s aiming to get rid of him posthaste…she’ll need to get a grip on Tommen quickly, and Jaime’s a bit of a distraction there.
Right now, I could see Westeros okay-off with a King Tommen, who seems like he’ll be able to think for himself and do himself proud; and Tywin seems the kind to shape a king, but not to deny him his rights if he comes to feel Tommen’s worth them. But there’s too many people around vying for the throne for poor gentle Tommen to keep it, I fear.
Oh, and as a generel appraisal: the episode didn’t work for me as an episode–too many snippets (Margaery and the Queen of Thorns, Danaerys off Meereen) that were fun, but clearly setups. Perhaps the showrunners shouldn’t try to give all threads (well, at least they spared us the Ironborn this time) time at all times?
