Baelish was fostered at Riverrun by House Tully, so I wouldn’t really expect him to sound any less posh than Catelyn or Edmure.
ISTM that the Hound probably draws a distinction between being thievery and a robbery too. One is sneaky the other is “honest” as far as a sell-sword goes. He didn’t even kill the guy.
Also, just how evil does a woman have to be before we stop caring if she was raped?
I don’t really care if anyone imaginary is raped.
You don’t have to care about Cersei to care that Jamie is now a rapist when he seemed to want to turn into a honorable knight like Brienne.
Yeah, I know; I just wondered if this conversation means he will be surfacing soon.
I don’t think he had any hope of being as honorable as Brienne. I think he was always going to be a bit of a shit but had the sense to feel a little guilty about it when around Brienne.
Oh, that’s silly. I appreciate you wanted more dragon action, but her selling herself to the slaves (get it?lol) before attacking isn’t a ridiculous plot point. It’s not like the masters in the new town were telling all their slaves that a savior was coming to town.
ETA: @SenorBeef re post #80
Well, first of all he’s outright said that he’d rather die than get raped, and couldn’t stomach the idea of Brienne (who at the time really wasn’t his best of friends) getting raped either. So the guy knows it’s a bit of a big deal. Furthermore for years, decades even he’s been consoling Cersei, who shall we say had a somewhat negative emotional reaction to her husband’s bedroom etiquette. Which might possibly conceivably be the very thing that gave Jaime such empathy for rape victims in the first place, who knows. Finally, he’s completely devoted to the woman, to the point of flinging kids out of windows to protect her.
And that guy is going to throw the woman he’s loved his whole life down on the floor, tear her dress away and hatefuck her ? The guy that the past two seasons have been spent establishing is ultimately a bleeding heart turned cynical and self-loathing by the world he lives in ? That guy is going to rape the one person in the world he respects (well, Brienne might be #2), and on the day his bloody *son *died too ? Reply to her begging him to stop with “I don’t care” ?
Yeah, no. I’m sorry, but no.
And Cersei’s reactions are not fucking ambiguous. She’s struggling, she’s pleading and “not here” still means no. Implicit consent ? What in the honest fuck… ?
I guess I’d feel worse about it if she hadn’t just been demanding that he kill their brother.
Not to get into a, er, beef here, but:
You really seem to be saying here that if a man is emotionally wounded, it’s pretty much okay for him to force himself on a woman.
I mean, how are you NOT saying that?
Also, the rationale (mentioned in the fifth paragraph, above) that the woman was “ambiguous” and “conflicted,” and that this (whether true or only perceived as true by the male character) makes it okay to rape: is that really a good philosophy? In the scene as filmed, the female character said “no” many times.
Are we really going for acceptance of the old “no means yes” justification, here?
I have absolutely no idea how you get that from what he said.
He’s saying it “makes sense” in the story, not that rape is ok. Sheesh.
Yeah, that’s how the scene read to me, too. I didn’t see any ‘yes’ at all in Cersei’s reactions.
Good points, too, about the negative attitude toward committing rape that has already been established–in more than one scene, as you point out–for the character (Jaime).
So she deserved a little bit o’ rape ? :dubious:
She’s wracked with grief and wants immediate revenge on who (she is absolutely convinced, because Cersei :p) killed him. That’s not crazy, or evil. It’s what people do who’ve lost loved ones violently.
It’s also why we have a justice system in the first place.
Yeah. Maybe she does deserve a little rape. What of it? She did engineer the murder of an entire family, you know.
I’m just adding my opinion to the pyre.
Jamie was the sexual aggressor with Cersei in S1. He was doing her fucking doggie style when Bran saw them. He calls her his true love, but I’d buy easy access. However, from what he’s said of Cersei, he may basically see her as his wife.
I don’t think he would equate what he’s doing with Cersei to what mercenaries were going to do to Brienne, but he’s still totally raping Cersei. He’s mad at her and consumed by lust and grief, so he takes her. Understandable. A better man would have walked away from Cersei long ago. Maybe? Not if she’s the mother of your children. Domestic violence, it happens. Not the first time, not the last, for our blonde duo.
I’m not shocked that a male writer and a male director are echoing “No, she’s totally into it, that’s totally hot!” :smack:
I’m more offended by it not being rape that I am by it being rape, and I don’t think it’s out of character for a guy who’s murdered his fair share of innocent people (Eddard’s bodyguard, the cousin squire who got caged with him), whose idea of sex is 1) with his sister and 2) the great consumption of whores by Robert (while he listens) and Tyrion, and the Kingslayer with all the psychopathy that entails.
You should watch the scene again. There are several points where she struggles with him, and then pro-actively kisses back at him, and then struggles again. When I say she was wavering between implied consent and rejection, that’s what I’m talking about. Her objections are also much more along the lines of “not here” rather than “don’t touch me”
I’m not advocating rape, or saying his actions were justified, I’m addressing the objection that it was out of character for him.
I should add that from what we’ve seen of them, he can be pretty forceful and she seems to be into it, so reluctance and power play probably isn’t foreign to them. I’m struggling to recall the specifics, but we’ve had another scene of them together where she was putting up some degree of protest and he was forceful with her and she ultimately was into it.
Given the circumstances, while it may be rape, it’s not the same sort of unambiguous, clear, sadistic rape that Brienne was going to get, that Jamie saved her from.
I think rape is such a sensitive issue that people here aren’t receptive to ambiguity in it - the very fact that some people are reading this thread as me justifying rape indicates that some people aren’t terribly level headed on the subject.
And I’d like to point out that this shows you’ve kiiiinda lost touch about what we are talking about. No, “we” don’t have a justice system in Westeros.
And there it is.
Tell me more about the justice system. In Westeros.