I’m not sure that it’s either “dumb things” or “bad decisions” in every case. It’s more that if you follow logical sequences of consequences, there are just some situations you can’t get out of alive.
Sure there is, you have no idea how good a fighter he is. A duel is not a position were most people would die, its a position were half the people die.
Judas Iscariot, Benedict Arnold and the Rosenbergs might beg to differ.
Agreed. As IRL, some people in GOT die because of their own bad decisions, and some die because of the enmity of others but through no apparent fault of their own.
No; he hadn’t picked a daughter yet, let alone had a wedding.
Unless you mean the woman he actually married and got pregnant? In which case you’ve missed the point of what I was saying:
I was responding to the point that Frey supposedly couldn’t betray Robb because their houses were joined in marriage. Not yet they weren’t.
Right, that’s what I’m saying. And it’s not a criticism of the show, it’s a positive.
In FictionTropeLand, even where good guys die there’s often a degree of “they deserved it”, for being suckered into some basic trick or for a moment giving up their principles. Not here. Usually.
The Red Wedding was a major violation of social norms for nobles, but it’s a medieval-type society. That means people get killed for pissing off other people on a regular basis and everybody knows it. A wise leader would try to avoid that- especially if he’s trying to make an alliance during a critical time in a war. Of course if you make a deal with someone and then back out of it, he might go to the other side to see what his loyalty worth to them.
oh man… seeing Tyrion leap and spin around with a sword like Yoda in AOTC while the Mountain plays the part of Dooku and his ship would be the best thing the show has ever done.
In the Saga of Gunnlaug Serpent-Tongue there is a duel involving the main character, both sides claim the victory because one of the participants had struck with his sword and the sword broke, the blade flying off and cutting the other man’s face. One claimed victory because the other no longer had a weapon, the other because the one was cut.
Some people who win might later die from injuries, though.
There’s an extremely easy way to argue that Oberyn’s decision isn’t completely stupid. Oberyn if confident he can kill the Mountain. Since we don’t have a way of comparing their relative skill in battle (fair or unfair), there’s no reason to assume that the Mountain is absolutely going to win.
Oh, I see what you were saying.
But Frey had pledged himself to Robb. And he was hosting a wedding with Robb’s uncle. Those meant that Robb was relying in the understanding that he had Frey’s loyalty. Of course it was a betrayal. It’s not like Frey said “until your cheque clears, King Robb, be careful, 'cause I might just stab you in the back.” That’s not how it works.
Braavos is the kind of place that does not need an army. If you show up to conquer them they just step out of the gate and buy your army out from under you.
I think htey have mentioned in passing that Oberyn is a quite accomplished fighter. they just have not shown him doing it on screen.
Actually, Oberyn’s plan is the smartest thing he could do. His entire stated reason for being there is to get revenge for his sister and her children. To do this he wants to kill the Mountain and Tywin Lannister. Now, he has the chance to kill the Mountain, humiliate Tywin while destrying all of his plans and do so in, as close as you can get in Westeros, a consequence-free environment. Oberyn gets everything he wants out of this.
Does anyone else think the Brienne/Pod is going to start rivaling Hound/Arya for the best odd couple pairing on the show?
Yeah but “how it works” is also supposed to be that once someone eats the salt-bread (or whatever it is) they are under your protection. It’s one of the most sacred obligations in their world. Note how many times in the series antagonists have met and trusted that no-one breaks protocol. If Robb’s stupid so’s Danearys, Stannis, Renly etc.
When did Stannis or Dany betray somebody and then rely on their hospitality?
I’ve lost track of the point. I was under the impression that someone was suggesting that Walder Frey did not actually betray Robb at the Red Wedding. Of course, he betrayed Robb, in at least two ways.
Hot Fuzz was on TV and I was paying special attention to The Hound in that film. It made me think, as much as I’d like to see Oberyn kill The Mountain, I’d love to see The Hound do it. Or a The Hound/Arya tag team.
Exactly. Assuming Oberyn is confidant that he at least stands a chance against the Mountain, being Tyrion’s champion works out great for him. He gets to (try to) kill the Mountain in a way that precludes likely retribution, while also making a public display of revenge.
Killing the Mountain secretly (by poisoning his morning bowl of frosted flakes, say) wouldn’t send the message, “This is what happens when you mess with Dorn.” Publicly killing the Mountain outside of the trial-by-combat comes with certain risks - (1) It’s more likely that someone would intervene (Goldcloaks, or a Lannister henchman who doesn’t want to see Tywin’s favorite killing machine destroyed, random dumbass who wants to say he fought side-by-side with the Mountain, etc.) (2) It’s more likely to lead to retribution. If the Mountain was killed in such a way, Tywin might want revenge, and he would definitely want to be seen as seeking revenge. But it’s harder for him to do so if the death is sanctioned by law and “the gods”.
The current situation is win-win for Oberyn. (Well, except for the 50% chance of death.) He even gets to help out someone who he feels has been given a raw deal in life.
Never. But I didn’t say that. What I’m saying is plenty of times they’ve relied (or hosted) people who had every reason to want them dead and a cast-iron opportunity to make it so.
So the “robb was stupid” idea is now based on that any betrayal trumps any other reason to want to kill someone, and Robb should’ve known that. Even though breaking the salt-food whatever thing is basically unprecedented.
Finally got around to seeing the episode. All I gotta say is, Sansa should probably think about becoming a lesbian at this point. Has she ever been romantically linked to anyone who wasn’t terminally shitty, creepifying, or both ? Seven hells…
I really liked the Bronn vs. Tyrion scene. And I’d really hate for the Hound’s death to come from something as undignified as a festering bite, he deserves a blaze of glory at least.
Yeah. Plus, considering this is a trial for regicide, I don’t think half-measures are the name of the game.
[QUOTE=DigitalC]
How hard would it be to make another tunnel under the wall anyways? Jerky McJerk made it sound like that would be it for their rangings if they sealed the tunnel, but it can’t really be more than a few weeks to make a new one right?
[/QUOTE]
You ever try digging through frozen soil with a shovel ? Because I can tell you, it’s Not Fun.
Ser Loras didn’t seem creepy or horrible. But when you consider the way Sansa has been treated it’s sadly plausible that she would respond to Littlefinger. From her perspective he’s probably the first person in a long time who has cared about her or her family at all.
In answer to the first, she is married to Tyrion. In answer to the second, she probably doesn’t quite appreciate how lucky she was with that match up, but I’m pretty sure she recognizes that he’s all right. He hasn’t tried to have sex with her, which anyone would expect, for one thing.
The actress playing Brienne was pretty enthused about the chance to bite someone’s ear off. Now she and the hound are headed to the same place. Is the dog going to lose an ear?