A man’s penis is removed and mailed to his relatives. He is flayed and tortured until he is a gibbering mess. He is broken and remade into a groveling, shambling fragment of a person.
Then he is in a scene with a woman and someone is upset about her lack of agency? This is sheer madness.
Yep, this episode is really bringing the stupid out all over the internet.
Yes, here you are!
What did I say that led you to that conclusion?
Are those the only choices?
I don’t know, is it?
So far as I know, there isn’t a significant number of people walking the streets of my town fearing that someone will run a lance through their babies or will castrate them and mail their genitals to their fathers or order their beheadings after accepting a plea bargain for a felony.
However, almost every woman with whom I have had even the slightest of intimate relationships with has a story about sexual harassment or importuning or assault or rape or the threat of one of those. They sometimes don’t know whether it’s one or the other or none. They know that they felt bad, and helpless.
They know that they feel guilty. They know that some people would blame them for what happened. They know that they have to be very careful about whom they speak to about it, because it might mark them in some way and interfere with their social or personal or professional relationships.
Almost every woman I know thinks about rape and being raped and how to avoid being raped and whether she should go to X place and Y time with Z person because of the possibility of rape.
We have ongoing questions in our society about what is rape, who is a rapist, whose fault rape is, how often is it happening, what can we do to stop it, whether we should do anything to stop it, and whether stories of rape are just being made up by women for some reason.
These things are affecting the lives of the women in our society, in our social circles, in our families. They affect their choices, their options, their futures.
And depictions in entertainment—movies, television, and video games, especially—reinforce messages surrounding this set of issues: What is the the role of women in society, what should they do, what should they be allowed to do, are they ever the actors in society?
Now that I write this all out, all this is seems similar to the experiences of young black men and law enforcement and black people in general and housing and employment. But what other kinds of violence depicted on TV happens in this kind of a mix?
Because murder—except when it’s committed by police officers, perhaps—doesn’t have such an ambiguous place in our society right now.
It’s like when people ask “Why aren’t you marching when cops are killed?” Because almost everybody agrees that cops shouldn’t be killed and that the people who killed them should be brought to justice. Cops don’t need anyone marching for them. There isn’t a societal problem of people going around killing cops and getting away with it because the system fails to hold them responsible.
Who has said that someone can’t watch something any more? We’re all talking about a show that we like and watch and how some aspects of its execution might be disappointing us. Are we not allowed to do that?
Seriously! Where was the outrage when they threatened to cut Tyrion’s dick off?
Or Theon got his dick cut off?!!
Or when Varys got his dick cut off!
Or when Grey worm and a legion of 8000 Unsullied got their dicks cut off?
Come to think of it. Maybe being a cockmerchant isn’t a bad business to be in.
So Sansa should have been spared from the consequences of her choices because the camera was on Theon? How else was this supposed to play out. Did the viewers who are outraged hoped all Sansa’s husbands would be as kind as Tyrion? This really is ridiculous.
I was so happy when this thread started and it was the only place not to have devolved into Sansa Rape Outrage.
:rolleyes:
To be fair, there was a lot of outrage last year when Jaime raped Cersei.
But I don’t know why anyone should be surprised. This is pretty normal and even pretty classy for Game of Thrones. He didn’t kill her. He didn’t torture her. She had unpleasant sex on her wedding night. So did er, Tommen’s wife, whose name escapes me. So did Cersei. So did Daenerys–first rape of the show!
I can understand battle fatigue, but it’s not as if Sansa getting brutalized by Ramsey is specialer than Theon getting brutalized. Unless you read any cop or death penalty thread here. He is so EVIL, after all.
And certainly there’s an argument to be made for men’s rights in an arranged marriage, too. Ramsey didn’t pick Sansa–he’s in love with someone else. But he was forced, basically, to have sex with Sansa. Same for Roose Bolton, having to stick it to Walda Frey. People who choose for love, like Robb Stark, are shunned. His mother picked his bride, that’s the way it’s supposed to be. Robert Baratheon wanted to marry someone other than Cersei. To say that’s okay for men but not for women is really underestimating the damage to men this does (sure it’s not usually physical damage, but sexual and emotional and mental damage all the same). Tyrion was ridiculed and dishonored his family because he couldn’t get it up for Sansa.
Having said all that, I think there is some part of Sansa that represents chastity and innocence. Seeing that toyed with by Littlefinger was painful. Seeing that taken away by Ramsey is painful. When characters suffer we’re supposed to feel pain. Usually we even like pain. That’s not the same as enjoying rape. Sansa has already started her quest toward badassery with the hair dye and the mocking of Ramsey’s girlfriend. She’s going places. She’s not a victim of anyone, not since Joffrey. Not anymore.
No, there was outrage when it came out that nobody involved with the show considered what happened rape.
Did you just imply the outrage wasn’t outrage because it was outrage?
There was outrage but not because it was a rape, but because millions of people saw a rape and then the director came out and said it was meant to be consensual.
Is there perhaps a huuuuuuge excluded middle here?
You seem to be confusing a fact-like listing of a series of events with a problematic depiction. There are thousands of ways to depict something that can be described as “So Sansa should [not] have been spared from the consequences of her choices” or “She had unpleasant sex on her wedding night.”
Who said that? Is anyone actually comparing levels of brutalization and ranking them by specialness?
Possibly the majority of people on earth today who enter into marriages do so through arrangement and they are expected to have sex with each other. Not all of such situations necessarily result in rape. But again it’s this specific depiction of rape—not marital rape in general or depictions of marital rape in general—that’s being criticized.
Not sure if you were trying to make a light-hearted joke or not, but it’s still against the rules, so let’s try not to make comments like these.
I’ve begun a thread devoted to the topic of rape in GOT - please consider taking all such discussions there: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=757389
I have no problem with its depiction or its implications for Sansa, Theon, or the plight of the American Woman.
You’re nitpicking my attempt at trollish hyperbole. But it doesn’t matter what flavor the outrage was. Jaime raping/consensually manhandling Cersei caused a huge stink, for whatever reason. Now Ramsey raping/consensually manhandling Sansa is causing a huge stink, for even more reasons.
Even though it is probably the least horrible thing to happen in this episode. Arya fucking murdered a child, and she’s a hero.
I wish all the people freaking out over Sansa would engage in a little self-reflection. Jamie basically raped Cersei in the tower and then tried to murder Bran in episode one. In a much more violent, exploitive scene.
What, exactly, did you think you were signing up for? What the hell did you think Ramsey Bolton was going to do?
It must be nice to be you.
So you’re just going to keep burning that straw man, eh?
Are you going to answer the question? Why has everything in this series been okay with you except this one thing?
All the “Sansa’s rape was a special rape” people are reminding me of they killed my Ned video back in season one. And yes, I know. Ned’s beheading was different. As was Craster’s rape of his daughters, Dany’s rape on her wedding day and every other rape on this show.
You made a poor choice trying to siphon off discussion from a show discussion thread into a book spoiler thread. Already there’s shit in there about the books I don’t want to know, so I’m not going to be participating over there. So my discussion of the issue remains here.
(1) Did I say that everything in this series has been okay with me except this one thing?
(2) I’ve posted quite a lot in this thread that I believe answers your question (and the possibly false premises therein) quite thoroughly. I am not inclined to repeat, recast, restate, or review it all at this time. Maybe you’ll catch me at a more generous moment some other time.
You’re right. I’ve been more interested in your emotional reaction, trying to find the root cause of the outrage, than your attempts at a compelling argument. But scrolling through again, I think I found it.
This is clearly an issue that goes much deeper than one scene on Game of Thrones. So I’m sorry I gave you a hard time. I hope you can understand that this particular perspective/emotional reaction of yours, which makes this scene so big, just isn’t something I share. Maybe the whole of Game of Thrones needs a trigger warning. It’s just, in my opinion, they already gave that warning a long time ago.
EDIT: I’m writing as a woman who’s seen both of the above, and not been bothered by either.