Game of Thrones 5.06 "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken" 5/17/15

[alphaboi867]

@brewha

She’s 19
Sophie Turner - IMDb
So, why is the king so inept? Does the church really have the power to arrest the queen? I know Tommen is a pussy and all, but he really should have had is king’s guard step in and stop that from happening. He’s king. Who is going to stop him?

Apparently they do now that Cersei reinstated the Faith Militant. During the Targaryen Dynasty they had to stand idly by by as generation after generation of kings openly married their sisters.

@tim314

The actress is 19, but the character is younger. I think some countries GoT airs in have restrictions on what you can show underage characters doing, even if the actress is an adult. This was apparently a consideration in determining how old Danerys needed to be in the first season.

Also why we only saw Tommen & Margery in bed after the fact, and he wasn’t in the same shot has her nude body.

@grude

Yes it did occur to me, and hell Oberyn voluntarily entered into fatal combat, hardly unjust of a death.

Prince Doran made this very point to Ellaria.

@oft_wears_hats

I got the impression that stopping greyscale was a one-in-a-million kind of thing. Everyone wrote off Stannis’ daughter as doomed once she started showing symptoms. Stannis said “nuts to that” and brought in every healer he could, and they managed to save her…

That’s same impression I got; and nobody has the slightest clue as to what worked and why she didn’t turn into a monster or die.

@Dewey_Finn

She doesn’t need to go that far. She already reminded Cersei that the capital is dependent on the Tyrells for gold and wheat. So she just has to withhold her subsidies and the crown will be in trouble, in particular with the Iron Bank. In fact, it might be the Iron Bank that arranges an end to Tommen’s reign.

She came right out and called Cersei “a tart” directly to her face. It’s obvious that that was in reference to.

@Dewey_Finn

Plus had Oberyn just finished off The Mountain instead of insisting on talking to him, he would have won the fight.

Well Oberyn did get almost the confession he wanted in the end (The Mountain had just enough sense to stop short of implicating Tywin).

@Elendil_s_Heir

If Tommen were to snuff it, would the crown fall to Myrcella (she of the Dornish boyfriend)? Or can only men inherit the Iron Throne?

And what of the raucous “wed them and bed them” customs of Westeros, as described in the pre-carnage Red Wedding chatting, when the wedding guests drunkenly undress the newlyweds and throw them in bed together? We didn’t see that in Ramsay and Sansa’s nuptials.

It’s been established that females can inherit in the absence of a mail heir, and given all the reference to heiresses I would assume male-preference primogeniture is the rule rather than semi-Salic law. As for the bedding ritual; that’s just a folk custom rather than part of the actual ceremony. Ned forbade his wedding with Catelyn, and it was skipped at Sansa & Tyrion’s.

@Mr.Kobayashi

…Imagine if Joffrey were still king, High Sparrow’s head would be decorating the Red Keep in record time. You can tell the Kingsguard are used to Joffrey’s rule when they go for their swords and wait on Tommen for the command…

I wish Tommen had pulled a Joffrey on the Sparrows.

@Acsenray

You don’t think committing treason against the crown by sleeping with the queen is a bigger sin? Add to it that it’s also adultery. And maybe incest? (They’re first cousins, which might not be considered incest in their social circle.)

Adultery with the queen consort still constitutes high treason for both parties in the UK; this is most definitely the case in Westeros. It’s definitely the worse crime (though the Faith might consider it a matter for the civil courts). As for the first cousin thing; I doubt that’s considered incest in Westeros (the line seems to be brother-sister & parent-child unions).

@Dewey_Finn

So why did Olyvar testify against Loras and Margaery Tyrell? Was it at the behest of Petyr Baelish? Was that just so that Olenna would need his help?

And in his conversation with Cersei, he said something like, “One’s choice of a companion is a curious thing.” Of course he was referring to Cersei’s incestuous relationship with her brother; how long before the Sparrows come after her for that?

The last time we saw Olyvar he was is total fear of this life; not so much this time. And unlike Loras he was well groomed and wearing clean clothes. The Sparrows have clearly used the carrot rather than the stick on him. The High Sparrow also didn’t question him saying with was a squire and omitting the part about being Littlefinger’s bottom bitch. There’s more here than meets the eye.

And Olyvar knowing about Loras birth mark doesn’t prove anything about Margery catching them in the act (His Holiness even included “to the best out your knowledge” to Margery’s oath), nor prove he was intimate with Loras since he could’ve just seen him changing clothes or gotten in 2nd hand from a female whore. Granted Loras loosing his cool and trying to attack him didn’t help his case, but that doesn’t matter since I imagine Loras is going to pick trial by combat.

@Dewey_Finn

I can’t remember; did Olyvar’s testimony make it clear that he was bedding Loras as a prostitute? Because that would be two strikes against him.

No, he said Loras summoned him to his chamber and came off as Loras being the seducer.

@clairobscur

…Ser Kevan stated he wouldn’t take command of the army and was returning to Casterly Rock…

I think he’d be very eager to return to King’s Landing if Tommen sent him a raven; especially after his exchange with Cersei.

@Acsenray

Then why didn’t Tyrion have sex with Sansa? Is he a man out of time?..

Tyrion never wanted to marry Sansa in the first place and the whole thing was a farce. Plus there’s the whole rebelling against this father who had his first love gang raped in front of him.

[Acsenray]

@LibrarySpy

You’re right. I’ve been more interested in your emotional reaction, trying to find the root cause of the outrage, than your attempts at a compelling argument. But scrolling through again, I think I found it.

This is clearly an issue that goes much deeper than one scene on Game of Thrones. So I’m sorry I gave you a hard time. I hope you can understand that this particular perspective/emotional reaction of yours, which makes this scene so big, just isn’t something I share. Maybe the whole of Game of Thrones needs a trigger warning. It’s just, in my opinion, they already gave that warning a long time ago.

First of all, I don’t think that my reaction to this scene comes anywhere close to outrage. I found it troubling and something about it seemed badly handled. I haven’t reached a final conclusion about it.

Beyond that, all I have tried to do is show that there are reasonable explanations for why this particular scene has drawn criticism, as opposed to others. I’ve seen way more of what be called outrage on the other side of this argument.

I am not a proponent of trigger warnings. I trust myself to judge what I think is appropriate. I quit watching The Walking Dead in the third season at least in part because I was finally put off by the explicit gore—I don’t like gratuitous gore fests like the Saw series. (The other reason was that the story no longer could hold my attention.) I didn’t make it far into Spartacus for the same reason.

On the other hand, I watched Rome all the way through and although it has been a while since I have seen it I don’t recall any depictions of rape or violence that bothered me excessively.

Downton Abbey was already getting cheap and soapy and the rape story was cheaply done.

I try to center all my judgments in matters like these on the individual merits of each depiction. Not the fact the rape occurs in the plot but whether it is handled in a way that is justified by the story, enhances its artistic value, isn’t a cheap appeal to prurience, and doesn’t reinforce problematic tropes or stereotypes.

[Wile_E]

I don’t want to continue the rape discussion anymore. I do not understand the outrage about it compared to all the other stuff that happens in this show. So I am just going to quote a couple people who I think said what I was trying to say.

@oft_wears_hats

I agree, like in Fight Club when they were asked to censor the scene where Edward Norton brutally beats Jared Leto. They mostly showed the crowd’s reactions instead of the actual beating, and it made the whole thing seem much worse. By focusing on Theon, they made the scene feel worse without actually having to be as visually gratuitous, while also presumably setting up Theon’s upcoming retaliation towards Ramsey. I certainly didn’t enjoy that scene, but it was very cleverly executed.

I think it’s mostly about Sansa, with Theon as a side note. Theon doesn’t have much more character development left, and I think this whole Ramsey arc is coming to a close while Sansa’s arc will develop further. As others have said, she was given the choice not to marry Ramsey, but she chose to do so - having some idea of what she would suffer as a result - so she could get her revenge. That’s another major moment of character development for her. Sansa was a passive victim for most of the series, and now she’s starting to fight back, even though she knows she’ll have to go through more horror before the end.

It sucks that terrible things are still happening to her, but I find that I’ve stopped thinking “I really hope Sansa makes it out of this” in place of “I can’t wait to see Sansa get her revenge.” I just hope they don’t do what they’ve done with so many other characters, and have her not make it out ok.

@SenorBeef

…
If they would’ve graphically shown Sansa being raped, it would’ve been decried as gratuitous and salacious. So instead we watch someone’s reaction to it, along with the audio, and we’re left to our imaginations. Theon’s reaction to the scene may end up being pivotal if we’re shown his agony and the reason that he finally regains some agency and snaps back. We’re also shown someone who’s in the same position as the audience - watching something extremely unpleasant - which is a way to show horror without actually showing the horror. Saying that because we saw Theon agonizing over it means it’s all about Theon is so fucking absurd. Is this sort of “needing to create problems of things no one actually believes” tumblr shit going to be saturating the whole fucking internet from now on?

Showing everyone making fucking bread from scratch starting from a pile of grain isn’t worth the screen time because it’s not relevant to the story. We do see plenty of people performing medieval chores. This season we saw people doing construction to rebuild Winterfell. A few seconds of screen time that gives context to the story and reminds us what happened.

You know what this show has shown a hundred times more of than women submitting to sex they don’t want? Murder. People are fucking murdered left and right. Often brutally. Often unfairly. Why is it that no one gives a shit about murder? Why aren’t we told that people can’t watch the show anymore because the murder is just too much? The show has murdered innocent kids over and over again, for fucks sake. Is murdering innocent people in horrific ways just not as bad as rape?
…

Now back to the actual discussion of the show. Regarding Arya murdering a child, I think that would fall into the mercy killing category. The father made a point to state how his child was suffering and there was nothing that could be done to save her, I think he knew full well what happens there.

[EllisDee]

@Sherrerd

I was merely commenting on the obvious fact that on any particular show, some things get shown and some other things don’t get shown, and this isn’t random. Instead, the question “What will bring viewers to the show?” influences what is filmed and presented.

The answer to the question is “drama” and “human relationships”, neither of which are furthered by bricklaying.

We’ve seen far more examples of the literal torture of men than we have rape scenes of women. (And the torture of men has been far more brutal than the rapes of women.) Why is that? Why are people so drawn to torturing men? You know you love watching men getting tortured. Own it.

As for timeliness, torture is a pretty timely issue, at least in the US.

@Elendil_s_Heir

I’ve begun a thread devoted to the topic of rape in GOT - please consider taking all such discussions there: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=757389

I’m not opening a spoiler thread.

[russian_heel]

@Acsenray

The question is not one about condoning rape. It’s not even one about depiction of rape. It’s about using violence against a woman (primarily) as a catalyst or motivation for a man’s story. That’s the kind of objectification that I believe is being objected to.

The first criticism I read about this primarily complained that the scene focused on the effect of the rape on Theon and panned away from Sansa’s reaction.

Its a dark fantasy story on HBO. As for Sansa’s reaction, the viewer heard it loud and clear. Reek was in the room, so of course he reacted and his reaction should have been noted by the director. There’s been children crucified, men castrated, whole families throats slit, homosexuals murdered on the spot, a guy having hot lead poured on his head, and many more outrages. This scene is to me just one of many outrages on this show.

[Smid]

@russian_heel

Its a dark fantasy story on HBO. As for Sansa’s reaction, the viewer heard it loud and clear. Reek was in the room, so of course he reacted and his reaction should have been noted by the director. There’s been children crucified, men castrated, whole families throats slit, homosexuals murdered on the spot, a guy having hot lead poured on his head, and many more outrages. This scene is to me just one of many outrages on this show.

I think perhaps we should list out a bit more of these things:

• Castrations (many, both threatened and already done, Unsullied, Varys, Theon: “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention”)

• Rapes, done, offscreen and inferred. Danerys on her wedding night. Cersei near daughters corpse. I assume that the women hunted down and eaten by dogs by Ramsay had probably been raped. I think Brienne was nearly raped too, but it got stopped, but then again, was the “Bear and the Maiden Fair” a better fate? I always assumed they were happening en masse around the Riverlands during Arya’s time, and her being dressed as a boy probably saved her from that fate.

• Pregnant woman murdered?

• Children crucified. Infanticide of Roberts bastards.

• Flaying. Ironborn at Moat Cailan. At winterfell. Theon.

How much have I missed?

I’m guessing this is less about the presence of rape in the Game Of Thrones world, than whether and how much the show puts onscreen… And whether we care about the character.

[Smid]

Anyway, not as if I’d have expected any less of a 5 page discussion on the definitions of rape on threads which typically have massive arguments about riding a dragon (something which hasn’t actually happened on the show so far).

There was something else apart from the rape and the showing of it, about Sansa.

I don’t buy the way its been presented so far.

So, Littlefinger marches Sansa up to possibly one her most sworn enemies, having previously plotted with her, and taken both interest as a protege and a love interest, and just dumps her there to be obviously raped.

Without her own guards.

So he takes Ramsay Boltons word that its all fine, and he’ll not hurt her. Hurt her? Well in the Game of Thrones, marital rape might not be quite the crime we see it as. It might be expected.

So what’s to stop him hunting her down with dogs next? Or flaying being used to get her out of her sulk? Well, perhaps after 9 months.

I’d say that both Littlefinger and Sansa expected this. It is part of the plan. It has to be. LF would certainly know about Ramsay before this. Well, by asking ANYBODY near Winterfell. Or north of Moat Cailin. So this is part of the plan, unpleasant as it is…

[tim314]

@Smid

I’m guessing this is less about the presence of rape in the Game Of Thrones world, than […] whether we care about the character.

Well, yeah.

I find it kind of absurd how many people are saying “How can you object to rape when you didn’t object to X, Y, and Z?!” Obviously people are going to be more upset by violence perpetrated against a character they care about – as well they should be, given that these are fictional characters whose imaginary lives only matter in as much as they are meaningful to the audience.

[clairobscur]

@Acsenray

Regardless of how you calculate the legal ramifications, being forced to have sex that you don’t want to be having is a human experience that is pretty much the same regardless of the circumstances, don’t you think?

In fact, no, I don’t think so. The experience of forced sex that you don’t expect, culturally and mentally, can’t be the same experience that forced sex that you accepted in advance deliberately and is perceived as a normal experience by yourself and your culture. In the second case, it’s an expected bad part of life. It has to be tremendously different psychologically.
But anyway my main objection, developed in the “spolied” thread, so I’m not going to repeat myself here, is that this scene probably doesn’t register in the list of the five hundreds worst things happening to someone that have been depicted in this serie. Even if you only include violence to women specifically , there has been much worst (Littlefinger sold girls to be tortured to death, Joffrey used whores as target practice, Ramsay had his former lovers eaten by dogs, orphan kids were abducted for sex slavery…) and nobody batted an eye (well…some did, but they quitted watching the show long ago). So, being so offended at this one after giving a pass to so much repugnant stuff doesn’t make sense to me.

[clairobscur]

@Sherrerd

There are forms of violence that the majority of the audience would reject, and then the showrunners would be out of a job. So the showrunners, understandably enough, show the particular forms of violence that will lead viewers to continue tuning in.

Playing well with the audience isn’t the same thing at all as the audience enjoying the scene (which I, and I think others, understood as “woah! There will be a rape scene in this episode! I love rape scenes so much!” like, say, the way they show nudity because guys want to see boobs).

For instance, I don’t think the audience “enjoyed” the Red Wedding scene, but it’s probably the most famous of the show.

[clairobscur]

@Acsenray

But the beheading of Eddard Stark for treason might have a different significance in a time and place where such beheadings are an ongoing issue and are used to put classes of people in their place.

In our society, rape has an immediacy and deeper significance and meaning that decapitation doesn’t.

And I disagree even with that. For instance, ISIS is known for the forced marriage of young girls to their fighters. It has been reported, denounced, etc… But the decapitations got more coverage, and more comments by people. And I believe that anyway, what shocked most the modern public wrt ISIS behaviour were two things : the murder of children and the burning alive of this guy in a cage. So, I don’t agree that marital rape has a deeper significance in our society than burning people alive or murdering kids. Which the serie showed aplenty without much objection.

[Acsenray]

@Wile_E

… I do not understand the outrage about it …

Perhaps by insisting on applying the word “outrage,” you are preventing yourself from understanding.

@Smid

I’m guessing this is less about the presence of rape in the Game Of Thrones world …

Of course! It’s not merely the fact that this was a rape that happened in the show. It’s something else about this particular rape.

@clairobscur

In fact, no, I don’t think so. The experience of forced sex that you don’t expect, culturally and mentally, can’t be the same experience that forced sex that you accepted in advance deliberately and is perceived as a normal experience by yourself and your culture. In the second case, it’s an expected bad part of life. It has to be tremendously different psychologically.

So back when marital rape was not recognized as a concept in our law—which was not too long ago—it didn’t feel as bad when it happened? Then why did we bother making it illegal (in some places, anyway)?

@clairobscur

And I disagree even with that. For instance, ISIS … So, I don’t agree that marital rape has a deeper significance in our society than burning people alive or murdering kids.

Perhaps what makes for a good news story from a far-off land is not the same thing that affects our day-to-day lives in a significant way.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@SenorBeef

You made a poor choice trying to siphon off discussion from a show discussion thread into a book spoiler thread. Already there’s shit in there about the books I don’t want to know, so I’m not going to be participating over there. So my discussion of the issue remains here.

@EllisDee

…I’m not opening a spoiler thread.

Your wish is my command - here’s a show-only, no-book-spoilers discussion of rape on the HBO show: Discuss rape and Game of Thrones HERE - HBO show only; no book spoilers - Cafe Society - Straight Dope Message Board. Please consider taking all such discussions there.

[BlackKnight]

After the credits roll on the last episode of the season, there should be the following brief scene:

A man walks through a busy city street pushing a cart.
“Coooocks! Getcher cocks right here! Cock merchant coming through! Best cocks in Essos! Dwarf cocks, pirate cocks, unsullied cocks - cocks of all shapes and sizes! Coooooocks! Getcher cocks here!”

Fade to black.

[Acsenray]

I suppose that a merchant of traditional Chinese remedies that keeps in stock various kinds of animal penises is akin to a cock merchant.

[Evil_Captor]

@Acsenray

“Condone” is the wrong question. I’m sure that the show does not condone any of the acts of cruelty that are depicted.

But the beheading of Eddard Stark for treason might have a different significance in a time and place where such beheadings are an ongoing issue and are used to put classes of people in their place.

In our society, rape has an immediacy and deeper significance and meaning that decapitation doesn’t.

So it necessarily reads differently to us.

Remember, when it comes to fiction, every story is really about ourselves in one way or another.

So, murder happens a lot in the real world too, so we shouldn’t include it in any fiction. In fact, all fiction should only be about people doing right and proper things, as determined by Ascenray or a committee appointed by Ascenray. Got it.

[MaxTheVool]

@Acsenray

So back when marital rape was not recognized as a concept in our law—which was not too long ago—it didn’t feel as bad when it happened? Then why did we bother making it illegal (in some places, anyway)?

What do you think? Do you think the experience of a woman who grew up being told from as soon as she could understand what the concept meant that at some point she was going to get married, and then she would have to submit to sex whenever her husband wanted, and that was right and proper and acceptable and virtuous and what Jesus wanted her to do; and a woman who grew up in modern America being told that she had total control of her body and that sex was NEVER ok unless she consented to it, and then she married some guy she thought she loved, and then one night he raped her; are the same? Particularly the emotional/psychological impact?

[Bone]

@Acsenray

What did I say that led you to that conclusion?

This:

@Acsenray

I quit watching “Downton Abbey” after the rape. That to me was just tawdry.

A poorly portrayed rape was sufficient to make yous top watching a show. I stopped after that season as well but not because of the rape, it just wasn’t that interesting of a show anymore.

In anycase, if I’ve attributed motivation to you that you did not possess I concede I am trying to suss out your thought process. I presume you’ve enjoyed GoT up to this point as you continue to watch the show. Putting these ideas together, it seems to me you are fine insomuch as you are not as troubled by other parts of the show as the rapey parts. That leads me to conclude that the other atrocities portrayed in the show are less troubling to you, hence not as bad as rape.

I think of the rape of Sansa much like the beheading of Ned. Looking back at the events of the show up to that point, it’s fairly obvious what is going to happen. The reason it is shocking and/or surprising is that as a viewer I didn’t expect the show to go that far, in the back of my mind I thought maybe they’d find a way to avert the inevitable at the last moment. Most shows do not have one of their main protagonists get raped and abused as much as Sansa has been. Most shows don’t behead their biggest named actor in the first season. But GoT is not that kind of show. All the indications of what was going to happen to both Ned and Sansa were present, for multiple episodes. The culmination of the horribleness was signaled in advance.

So unless you have an issue with rape being used as a storytelling device at all I struggle to see why this particular occurrence is more troubling than others.

[Acsenray]

@Evil_Captor

So, murder happens a lot in the real world too, so we shouldn’t include it in any fiction. In fact, all fiction should only be about people doing right and proper things, as determined by Ascenray or a committee appointed by Ascenray. Got it.

Really? This is what you get from anything I said? I can’t believe this is sincere.

[Evil_Captor]

@Acsenray

Really? This is what you get from anything I said? I can’t believe this is sincere.

If not that, what did you mean when you said, “After all, fiction is a story we tell about ourselves” in the context of your objections to Sansa’s rape scene? Weren’t you implying that we shouldn’t include such scenes in stories we tell about ourselves?