(1) that daughter’s death will affect the outcome of the coming battle at all (something we don’t know and that Stannis most certainly doesn’t know);
(2) that Stannis is capable of saving the world;
(3) that no one else is capable of saving the world; and, most importantly and questionably,
(4) that the only way that Stannis can save the world is by becoming king.
If saving the world from the threat beyond the wall were really Stannis’ paramount concern, he could pledge himself and his army to Danerys, or the Lannister/Tyrells. He could sacrifice his own personal ambition to this ostensible greater good. This would strengthen Westeros’ chances, as fewer lives would be thrown away on internecine squabbling. That would have been the truly noble sacrifice, and one worth making. Instead, he let someone else die horribly so that he could get what really matters most to him - the throne, the power he feels he’s owed - and let the pretense that it was for the greater good soothe his conscience.
(Did I binge watch this whole damn thing in the last two weeks and now have strong opinions on it? Why yes, thanks for asking!)
SOrry, misunderstood the argument you were making - I thought you were saying Stannis was somehow trying to save the whole world, which didn’t make sense.
But the argument you are making is still not persuasive to me, because there is still another option: walk away. Give up your claim. Maybe all your men will die if you don’t kill your daughter and you fight… so don’t fight.
He has been told that he is the only hope for the World by a priestess with proven miracles. He’s been shown things that came true.
In any case, at this point in time, he has exactly two choices:
Sure. But bear in mind that you are making this argument as a skeptical person living in a rational universe. Stannis is evaluating his options as someone who lives in a universe where magic is real, and where he has strong evidence that the Lord of Light is real, and where he has evidence that he is a prophesied leader who will save the world from evil.
And even if none of that were true, he really has no other options. He can NOT just walk away. Maybe, MAYBE he could gather a few remaining horses and as many provisions as possible and sneak away with his wife and daughter and Melisandre and a handful of trusted men, leaving the rest of his army to freeze and die. And a bunch of people seem to be saying that they would in fact do that… saving their daughter at the cost of many other lives. But I think that would be FAR more evil and unforgivable than what he did.
StoryTeller made my argument against killing Shireen better than I could, except Stannis doesn’t have the option to walk away from the Bolton fight. He still chose wrongly and selfishly.
Another thing that comes into play is Davos observations; Melisandre needed him to make at least one of her prophecies true. She has also hand-waved the possibility of error by saying if a prophecy fails it’s her interpretation of it instead of the prophecy itself. Very convenient but the possibility of false/wrong prophecies is known.
But are you saying “I think Stannis made the wrong, unethical, choice”? Or are you saying “Stannis made a choice that was out of character and didn’t make sense and was therefore evidence of poor and contrived writing”?
I can see an argument for the first, although I disagree, at least in the context of the GoT universe. But I think the second is just baseless.
I think he made an unethical choice. As he’s written, I can see him making that choice. It’s wrong as a person, not for the character on GoT. I also think, in-character, that he has betrayed his principles. He lied (by omission) to his daughter and then hid so Shireen couldn’t see him.
We’ve seen two priests of the Lord of Light who can unambiguously perform some magic. (We’ve also seen the Red Witch take credit for something that her magic may or may not have had anything to do with.) But anything beyond that is supposition. Everything we’ve seen is consistent with individuals who can perform magic on their own without any god of any kind, but who are religious and therefore ascribe their power to their god. In short, they very well could be an extreme version of the modern sports star who says (and believes) that Jesus really made the touchdown.
Of course it is. All we know is that a couple of people who claim to be getting their power from the Lord of Light have been able to perform what looks like magic. That doesn’t mean that those priests actually know how they are performing such magic. We have never seen a Lord of Light. We don’t know where these magical powers come from. So far as we know, the priests have never seen their Lord of Light. The priests might be mistaken.
No. A Miracle was still performed. In short, they very well could be an extreme version of the modern sports star who flew thru the air across the field- and says (and believes) that Jesus really made the touchdown.
It was part of the most un/realistic fight seen I think I have ever seen. In fact it was an analysis of battle that built on the best scenes from, say, Black Hawk Down. And with a dragon saving the day.
A wonderful depiction of that unobtainable calm and eventually organisation growing in the midst of total chaos, constant assault and almost certain death. The determination, the professionalism, the resolution, the acceptance of certain death and yet still organising a coherent defensive position.
Each stage of that battle was just magnificently realised; the initial attack, being over run and evacuating, choosing the wrong strategy and then moving to a final defensive position. Just excellent.
And some people thought aspects of it were “unmotivated” - I honestly wonder what those people think they’re looking at. The two women had accepted their fate.
I really wondered why Danaerys didn’t pick up a weapon and try to fight. Even though she never did such a thing (although I believe she once hit her brother with some object), the attitude she had doesn’t seem to fit the character. She not supposed to belong to the “damsel in distress” category, but she behaved exactly like one, closing her eyes and waiting for death (hand in hand with the other helpless girl) while the valiant men around her would be getting killed to protect her.
Apart from the previous version of Sansa, I can’t see any of the past and current lead female charachters acting this way. Even the old Tyrell matriarch would probably pick up something and try to bludgeon whoever approached her.
It really wasn’t a damsel in distress moment That’s in children’s fairytales.
They held hands (it seemed a joint thing) and she immediately closed her eyes - on first viewing I thought to summon or call the dragon to action. But I looked at it again and I do think she was accepting fate, accepting death - that moment coincided with the break throughs getting within a pace or two of her.
I think we’ve come to know her strengths after 5 seasons, physically battling men probably isn’t one.
But what does that have to do with the Lord of Light? All we really know is that some people appear to have certain powers.
And frankly, the Red Witch’s track record isn’t as impressive as it might seem. The other priest could bring back the dead, which is damned useful (even if they come back with some parts missing or damaged). She might have some immunity to poison, and is able to birth a shadow baby at least once. What else? She can throw leeches into fire, but heck, I can do that too. There’s no good reason to believe that her magic had anything to do with the deaths of Joffrey or Robb. If the leeches worked, then why is Balon Greyjoy still kicking it?
She might well be exactly what she claims she is, but she might also be a one-trick pony who is good at convincing others that she has more power than she really has.
I think it’s in character for Stannis to believe in her (although up until this episode he appeared to harbor some doubts). I just don’t think that he has anywhere near enough good reasons to believe in her that would justify burning a child alive.
In the short term, sacrificing Shireen can be justified. My problem with Stannis is his nearsightedness about following the Lord of Light. What do we know about him? Clearly some combination of the god himself and the Red Priestesses can perform helpful magic. That’s not really in dispute. But the god’s demands are steadily getting more and more onerous. First it was just sex, then some kingsblood, and now a princess.
It doesn’t take a maestor to see where this is going. The god wants blood, and doesn’t really seem to care if the people getting burned deserve it or not. So what is Westeros going to look like with Stannis on the Iron Throne, devoted to the Lord of Light? Oh, there’s a bit of a drought, let’s round up a hundred virgins and toss them in the volcano. Some noble got killed and his family wants a resurrection? Well, thanks to inflation the cost is three hundred peasants now.
At this exact moment, okay, maybe Stannis made a cold, yet reasonably pragmatic choice. But the path he’s on has far more dire long term consequences.
That’s in children’s fairytales.