Game of Thrones 8.06 "The Iron Throne" 5/19/2019 Show Discussion

[Colibri]

@Fiveyearlurker

Jon Snow didn’t appear to be joining the Night’s Watch, but heading north with the freefolk to live as a sort of Mance Rayder character. Do, I have that right?

I believe they said he had to rejoin the Night’s Watch as part of his sentence, but didn’t explain what the Night’s Watch was supposed to do besides be a repository for men who didn’t have other options. This was the most WTF part of the episode for me. But maybe the realm still has need of a monastic force of peacekeepers, though not just in the North. And I believe Jon had a couple of black-clad Brothers with him, and of course someone had to close the door behind him and the Wildlings as they left Castle Black.

I can understand the Wildlings wanting to go back North of the Wall since that was the life they knew. I presume they were hunter-gatherers and wouldn’t have been happy as farmers south of the Wall. However, the economy of Beyond the Wall was always pretty mysterious. How so many people could live by hunting didn’t make sense. On the other hand, we have only ever seen Beyond the Wall in winter when everything is covered in snow, so maybe it’s a bit more appealing when things thaw out.

[PunditLisa]

And since GoT was loosely based on the War of the Roses, which was a 30+ year conflict between two very powerful branches of the Plantagenet dynasty, this ending was the OPPOSITE of what happened with the real war.

The real War of the Roses ended when one claimant, Henry Tudor, with Plantagenet blood and ties to both the Lancasters (Lannisters) and Yorks (Starks) seized control of the throne by virtue winning a major battle. This consolidation of power, and his/his heirs’ subsequent killing/imprisoning of anyone else with Plantagenet (Targaryen) blood ultimately, and perhaps ironically, led to peace. Out of the ashes of the Plantagenet dynasty rose the Tudor dynasty, arguably the greatest English dynasty in history (though the reign of King Charles the Tampon promises much.)

After decades of civil war, with both the nobles and commoners exhausted and gutted of their peace, their money, their food, and their men, Henry VII’s reign must have been a relief to the English people.

But. Essential to this peace was the notion that the succession was finally settled! There would be no more fighting over who had the superior claim; it was understood that Henry’s heirs would take the throne, as both a blood right and a birth right. They were so war weary that when Henry VIII’s only male heir, they allowed his previously declared bastard female heirs (Bloody Mary and Elizabeth) to ascend to the throne.

Given that having royal blood was as essential to GOT lore as it was to English history, after all this chaos…it makes zero sense that they would elect a King who had NO chance of bearing an heir! Because, as Tyrion points out, once that King is dead, they’d all be back to Square One…and what’s the chance of a bloodless mutually agreeable appointment happening again?

No, if they wanted peace for the realm, it would have made far more sense had they picked ANYONE who could have produced heirs v. a sterile king. Even the Greyjoy lesbian could have sucked it up and slept with a man for the sake of peace!

Instead, the future of Westeros holds yet another Civil War as 3 Starks, 2 Targaryens, and 1 Lannister, plus ALL their potential heirs, eventually duke it out for the right to sit on the iron-blob throne.

They should have elected Samwell Tarly.

[Steve_McQwark]

@Snarky_Kong

A very small portion of the Wall was destroyed near Eastwatch by the Sea, not near Castle Black.

Oh, that’s right, the wall crumbled into the sea. Thanks for the memory jog.

[puddleglum]

I really liked it, but the pacing of the past two seasons has been horrible. The first six season were slow building and took their time. The past two season have been a sprint. This episode should have been two or three episodes.

Jon being conflicted about Dany makes total sense, he loves her and he has pledged his loyalty to her. Remember how harshly Ned judged Jaime for killing the Mad King? For Jon to do the same thing took a huge change in his thinking. The whole scene with him and Dany was him begging for her to not make him kill her.

Bran makes sense for king because as the three eyed raven he is disinterested in power politics and thus all of the houses have no reason to be suspicious of him. Plus the fact that he can’t have children gives each hope that their offspring can be the next king.

Bronn makes sense for master of coin because the Reach is the richest part of Westeros now that the mines of Casterly Rock have been tapped out. Thus as lord of the part of the kingdom that will be contributing the most money he has the best incentive to spend it well.

I am happy for Jon that he gets to be king beyond the wall now. The only time he was really every happy in the series was his short time with Ygritte, maybe she has a sister. He deserves a happy retirement free of politics.

[DrCube]

Before Jon Snow was elected Lord Commander, the Night’s Watch was a penal colony tasked with keeping Wildlings out of Westeros. Not sure what’s so confusing about them continuing to do the same job they did for thousands of years up until just a year or two ago.

[DigitalC]

I think the shot of a green plant growing out of the snow as the wildlings went back north was very significant. Winter is over and the world might have changed for ever.

[MeanJoe]

@DrCube

Before Jon Snow was elected Lord Commander, the Night’s Watch was a penal colony tasked with keeping Wildlings out of Westeros. Not sure what’s so confusing about them continuing to do the same job they did for thousands of years up until just a year or two ago.

I have my complaints about the season but so much of the complaining I hear from others seems to be grounded in a different understanding of Westeros and the story as told. This is another example. I’ve seen countless complaints online about Jon being sent to join the Night’s Watch again with the premise being the Night King and White Walkers are defeated so there is no need for the Nights Watch. Um… true he and his army were defeated but that has nothing to do with at the time centuries of history of Westeros and the Night Watch. Few in Westeros believed the old stories of wights and evil beings beyond the wall. Even in Winterfell it was mostly fairly harmless stories to tell children. The real threat was the wildlings and thus the primary responsibility of the Nights Watch. Although there was a real reason for the creation of a magical wall and the Nights Watch based upon the Night King and White Walkers, it had all mostly been lost to time for the average common people. The Nights Watch was where you sent criminals, bastards, or those inconvenient and disappointing 3rd sons who you wanted out of the castle. That’s a function that I’m assuming even Queen Sansa and The North still want and need.

[aurora_maire]

@MeanJoe

I have my complaints about the season but so much of the complaining I hear from others seems to be grounded in a different understanding of Westeros and the story as told. This is another example. I’ve seen countless complaints online about Jon being sent to join the Night’s Watch again with the premise being the Night King and White Walkers are defeated so there is no need for the Nights Watch. Um… true he and his army were defeated but that has nothing to do with at the time centuries of history of Westeros and the Night Watch. Few in Westeros believed the old stories of wights and evil beings beyond the wall. Even in Winterfell it was mostly fairly harmless stories to tell children. The real threat was the wildlings and thus the primary responsibility of the Nights Watch. Although there was a real reason for the creation of a magical wall and the Nights Watch based upon the Night King and White Walkers, it had all mostly been lost to time for the average common people. The Nights Watch was where you sent criminals, bastards, or those inconvenient and disappointing 3rd sons who you wanted out of the castle. That’s a function that I’m assuming even Queen Sansa and The North still want and need.

But the wildlings aren’t a threat now. They are allies with the North. Jon would never let Sansa make them enemies again. So who are the Night’s Watch protecting the North from?

[Ashtura]

What’s so special about the North where they get to have their own Kingdom and nobody else does?

Perk for having to wear lots of fur?

Because it’s a tradition? So? I thought they were rewriting the rules of how everything worked there.

[Bijou_Drains]

seems the Night’s Watch might be partly based on the French Foreign legion who take people with all kinds of past problems. They take people from anywhere , not just France .

[clairobscur]

@zimaane

He was a representative of the Maesters ?

He isn’t exactly qualified to represent them. He didn’t even finish his apprenticeship. If they have sent a representative, it would probably be some old guy with a very long chain.

[Bijou_Drains]

But as people stated above Sam also is from the family Tarly and he is the oldest son still living.

[DrCube]

@aurora_maire

But the wildlings aren’t a threat now. They are allies with the North. Jon would never let Sansa make them enemies again. So who are the Night’s Watch protecting the North from?

The Wildlings temporarily allied with Jon to fight the White Walkers. They weren’t pacified or “brought into the fold”. They never bent the knee to anyone and don’t plan to follow any southron kings in the future. Chances are they’ll start raiding the North again soon enough.

[troub]

@puddleglum

Bronn makes sense for master of coin because the Reach is the richest part of Westeros now that the mines of Casterly Rock have been tapped out. Thus as lord of the part of the kingdom that will be contributing the most money he has the best incentive to spend it well.

I hate that Bronn got his castle, and especially hate that he got to the small council. But I suppose that this does make some kind of sense to have a…I guess…selfish miser-type, not sure how to word what I’m thinking there…but he knows the value of a buck. Like he said to someone at the meeting, if you spend it all there won’t be any left; which is stupidly obvious but a step up from the likes of Bobby B and Littlefinger, apparently.

As to what Sam was doing at the Kingsmoot or whatever we call that…if the Tarly house is a vassal of Highgarden, at that point Highgarden was vacant, right? It hadn’t yet been bequeathed to Bronn. So he might have been there as a representative for that area due to the vacancy of the higher lord?

The biggest thing that didn’t make sense to me was indeed Sansa’s declaration that the North would stay independent and everyone else just shrugging. Dorne especially, but it’s not called the “Seven Kingdoms” for nothing. They should all want independence in that case. If they’d just added an extra 30 seconds or so for Sansa to explain something like “we fought the army of the dead and WON, with NO HELP from the southron kingdoms. We will do it again if we must, and you’re free to sit down here minding your own business again. But if we are to be on our own, we will be on our own.” Adding something like that to her declaration would give a little more justification to the other kingdoms than “hey little brother, I’m gonna go be a queen, kthxbye.” Also unclear why the North wouldn’t follow a Stark king. It would have to be less about who is king and more about being failed by the idea of being united with other regions for common defense, etc.

EDIT: The Vale helped actually, I guess…but only a little? Not the cavalry? <shrug>

[ivylass]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned, but I thought for sure the dragon was going to blast Jon.

Then I remembered the dragon’s name. Drogon.

So, if we are to assume Drogon has some qualities of Khal Drogo, it makes sense for the dragon to destroy what ultimately killed his Moon and Stars, the Iron Throne (and why wasn’t Jon singed at least, standing that close to the flame?) and take off with her dead body.

Have we figured out what happened to Arya’s horse?

[Bijou_Drains]

@ivylass

Have we figured out what happened to Arya’s horse?

probably taken by the Dothraki . Or maybe it became dinner?

[DigitalC]

According to Clarke she’s been getting notes on how to play certain scenes in every season and she did not understand why until she read the script for the last season. So this was obviously planned from the start and probably one of the main things Martin told them about the ending. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t rushed and poorly written.

[clairobscur]

@Steve_McQwark

Speaking of Brienne, I was really happy with where she ended up. I would have been really ticked off if the last we saw of her was standing in the rain bawling about Jaime. Now she’s in a respected position and she’s still honoring her oath to Catelyn by watching over one of her children.

I was expecting her to follow Sansa. But being commander of the king’s guard means permanent celibacy.

Also, with the Dothraki and Unsullied leaving Westeros, why does anyone care about the Jon compromise? If he wants to go back south and travel around, who’s going to care?

He’s a Stark. He was sentenced and accepted the sentence. He won’t move. But anyway, he doesn’t look like if has any desire to go back “in the world”.

I think the default assumption is that when King Bran dies there will be a lot of political manuevering and perhaps even another civil war to replace him.

How long did the previous three eyed raven live? Centuries? Thousands of years? There won’t be a need for a new king for a very, very, long time. He’ll probably be assassinated before he dies of old age.

[MeanJoe]

@aurora_maire

But the wildlings aren’t a threat now. They are allies with the North. Jon would never let Sansa make them enemies again. So who are the Night’s Watch protecting the North from?

DrCube responded but the one thing I would add is regardless of the legitimacy of the threat, it still benefits the nobles of Westeros to have an option for disposing of criminals, bastards, and those inconvenient 3rd sons by sending them to The Wall. The show made a good point of everyone laughing at Sam for his democracy idea and that alone should remind that in Westeros it’s still not exactly an equal rights for all society. And The Wall and the Nights Watch has been a conduit for solving uncomfortable situations for the houses for centuries. They’re not going to just let that go.

[EllisDee]

@Dewey_Finn

That was there, but before that was a long promo for multiple series.

First a long promo for Watchmen, then a long promo for Westworld. (The one with Aaron Paul and the futuristic criminals was WW, and it looks awesome!)

@DigitalC

I still don’t see how any of the episode titles were in any way spoilery while out of context.

Agreed. WTF?

@clairobscur

I was expecting her to follow Sansa. But being commander of the king’s guard means permanent celibacy.

Unmarried, not celibacy. Similar reforms are being enacted in the Night’s Watch, under the careful guidance of Sam the Horny. (He’s not there, but he’s the one who first proposed that loophole to Jon.)