Spoilers for the first three published books below
I picked up George R. R. Martin’s “A Song of Ice and Fire” series on the recommendation of a few posters here, and I’ve just finished the third book (A Storm of Swords) and find myself, like, totally obsessed with them and desperate to discuss them.
This is a lively message board is dedicated to ASOIAF, and you can find threads on nearly every possible topic related to the books. I thought, though, that we should have our own thread involving this most excellent series.
But what to talk about? How about we start with this:
What are you most looking forward to finding out in the next book?
IstheHoundaliveordead? pant pantahemIs the Hound alive or dead? True, when we last saw him, he was in terrible shape with festering wounds and expecting to die. Prospects aren’t good…but this is the Hound here! One bad-assed mofo who still has a score to settle with his brother. And not for nothing, I think, was he mentioned in the third book’s epilogue nor does Sansa keep thinking about him.
Speaking of which, what is going to happen to Sansa now that Littlefinger’s got her? It would pain me grievously to see her nature twisted into a little copy of his own. I mean, I dearly love the evil man and delight in his manipulations, but I want Sansa to stay good. She’s beginning to lose some of her naivetè and to start seeing people for what they truly are…please let her (if anything) only pretend to be corrupted so she can use Littlefinger’s skills against him.
What is Stannis going to do when he learns Jon has been made Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch? I shudder to think. In fact, it pains me to speculate, so let me leave it at that.
What is Tyrion going to do next? Oh, the possibilities! I can’t think of any one course that seems more probable than the others.
Am I the only one who reads the chapters out of order or even (:o) skips some of them?
Your turn!
I’m thinking that Tyrion is going to consolidate a power base in the southeast, similar to the deal he set up with the hillmen and other mercenaries, but he won’t have the Lannister gold to back him up this time. Knowing Tyrion, he’ll have something up his sleeve. I’m also picturing him showing up at Highkeep’s doorstep with an invasion force behind him, looking Littlefinger in the eye, and telling him “I’ve come to take back my wife.”
Stannis will probably officially recognize Jon as Commander of Night’s Watch, albeit very begrudgingly, because he’s got to maintain this image of being the people’s king.
I think both the Hound and the Mountain will be back, meaner than ever. They’re both too full of hate to leave this mortal realm.
Sansa’s value as a hostage is about zero now. I suppose her husband would be recognized as Lord of Winterfell now, but it’s ashes. Maybe Littlefinger’s got some plans to rebuild it and gain more autonomy over the north. Sansa will probably meekly fit in the background like a mouse as she’s been trying to do, but will probably start fancying herself as a “stranded princess” that will eventually be recognized by a Prince Charming. Being cooped up in Highkeep does that to people.
I’m thinking Arya will probably turn out to be the new super assassin for hire. She’s got some payback to deliver after she gets schooled.
I’m also looking forward to seeing what the principles do when Daenyres comes sailing with her dragons, barbarian hordes, and robot eunuch army.
GRRM’s website sez his book’s listed as coming out in April, but he says he’s still writing it and that date is probably premature. whine GOTTA HAVE MY SOIAF FIX!
Amazon.com gives the publication date as September 2003, but even that’s speculation, since the book hasn’t been completely written yet. (ARGH!)
Your prediction regarding Stannis gives me hope. I had forgotten that he had said something about saving the kingdom for the sake of the throne…hopefully, he’ll recognize that Jon is in a good position where he is.
Sansa may be stronger than you think. I think it was telling that she stood up to Littlefinger and pointed out to him that he lied to her about bringing her home (when they made the snow castle), and also when she did not back down right away when Lysa accused her of kissing Littlefinger. (True, she did back down later, but she did it deliberately, not out of some instinct to cower.) She’s shown that she’s very good at reading people and figuring out what they want to hear – that’s how she survived Joffrey and Cersei, after all…
I’m in agreement here. She may have been initially naive, but that naivete gets chipped away with every passing chapter. Also, people are quick to label her weak and simple, but I disagree. She is strong enough in spirit (albeit masked in meekness) to survive amongst a hive of Lannisters, and she is smart enough to know when to keep her mouth shut and just observe which direction the wind is blowing–something that many of the supposedly “strong” characters can’t seem to grasp. I feel that under Littlefinger’s direction, she will uncover her latent craftiness and cunning and may in fact become a major player later on. I just hope she doesn’t lose whatever goodness she has in the process.
Did anybody notice that while Stannis’ sword didn’t produce any heat, Berek’s did? Makes you wonder whether their respective pet clerics serve the same god.
BTW… who else has figured out Jon’s real parentage?
It’s been too long since I read them for me to discuss anything intelligently. But I make sure to check www.georgerrmartin.com periodically to see if the next one’s done yet. Sigh. I’ll start rereading the first three the day he posts that it’s finished.
I do have to say, though, that one of the biggest reasons I like this series is that I can’t see any way for him to end it satisfactorily. Every faction has someone in it that you like. Someone (well, some more people) that we like is going to get screwed over. I can’t wait.
The rules of drama state that any two characters with a major score to settle and sufficient levels of coolness must take each other out in a climactic battle to the finish. The Hound and Mountain are both in really bad shape when we leave off but still alive. They have to last long enough to finish each other off…
Nothing good. She’s his now lock, stock and barrel and she’s definitely not coming out of it unscaythed.
Stannis? Probably not much. Right now he’s dead set on Davros’s plan to help support the kingdoms while being in open rebellion. He’ll likely react with disappointment that Jon didn’t take him up on his offer followed by being pleased that at the very least he’s in a position where he can use him.
Stannis’s lady friend (who’s exact name escapes me at the moment) on the other hand will likely not be happy with the arrangement.
Now there’s the wild card in the bunch; he’s the only mover and shaker who could literally turn up anywhere, on any side right now. The only people he can’t concievably be supporting is his own family. North the wall for safety? Join Beric’s group complete with problems with the vengeful Cat? Across the ocean to try to avoid his sister’s assassins and into Daenry’s lap? Captured by raiders and hauled off to Theon’s father? South to Dorne who might be gearing up for their own rebellion? Whereever he goes I’m sure that things are going to hinge on him.
They certainly pay lip service to the same one, but my guess is they’re not really the same.
It wasn’t exactly craftily hidden in A Game of Thrones, though the kid saying his was Jon’s brother in Storm certainly throws the monkey wrench in the obvious answer.
I may be wrong here b/c it’s been awhile since I read the books, but wasn’t Beric’s sword just a plain old sword doused in chemicals and lit? I seem to recall a smith talking about how he kept ruining them and having to have new ones made. Is this right?
I just started rereading the series in preparation for the new book, whenever that is.
Alessan: I KNOW WHO JON’S PARENTS ARE! I’m psyched that someone else has figured it out. I wish I knew how to make one of those cool spoiler boxy things, so I could see if my answer is the same as yours.
My thoughts (these are not spoilers, just speculation):
The Hound is not dead. In fact, he’s very near the Eyrie, where Sansa is being held. I think he is going to rescue her. It’s obvious to me that they’re in love, whether they know it yet or not. This is the romance I’m really pulling for, oddly enough.
Tyrion will join forces with Daenerys Stormborn. I think, sooner or later, both will find common cause with Jon Snow, as soon as he realizes who he really is…
I really wish I knew what was going on with Bran…theories?
Anyone else think Hodor is going to turn out to be more than he seems?
I’ve heard that there will be 2 new POVs in the next book. One of them will be Cersei. That will be very interesting; I recall how seeing Jaime’s POV altered my opinion of him. Anyone care to speculate who will be the other POV? I’m hoping for The Hound myself.
Petyr Baelish will find some way to play the Lannisters against the Tyrells and open war breaks out in the South. To win, the Lannisters are forced into an uneasy alliance with the Martells.
Recall that the Tullys still have several thousand troops in the Riverlands. If the Lannisters are busy down south, they won’t be able to help Lord Frey take Riverrun. Plus, Walder still has to deal with the Brothers Without Banners. Things could get messy up there.
Now we still have the Horn of Winter sitting at Castle Black. It would be a powerful bargaining chip for anybody who had it. My prediction: the Bastard of Bolton visits Castle Black, supposedly to make a deal with Stannis, but actually to steal the Horn. Melisandre sees it coming, though, and it’s curtains for Mr. Bolton. With that, Stannis is able to beat the leaderless Boltons and possibly go to war against the Ironmen. Recall that Balon Greyjoy is dead, there may be civil war among the Ironmen for control of the Seastone Chair.
We last saw Arya heading for Braavos. Everybody seems to assume that she’ll train with faceless men once she gets there. Well maybe, maybe not. Mr. Martin clearly enjoys outfoxing his fans’ predictions. The ship that she’s on could get diverted elsewhere, etc… If she does become trained as an assassin, I have a speculation about who her first major assignment would be: Daenerys Targaryen.
Cercei believes that Sansa was involved with Joffrey’s murder. Baelish may attempt to make a deal with her by offering to give her Sansa. Then Sansa learns about it and escapes just in time.
You create a nifty spoiler box by putting [ SPOILER ] before the spoiler and [ /SPOILER ] after the spoiler, except without the spaces between the bracket and the word “spoiler.”
Like so:
I’m guessing that Jon Snow’s dad is NOT Ned, but rather Rhaegar Targaryen, and that his mother is Ned’s sister, whose name escapes me right now. That’s a dangerous mix, so Ned took all the shame of being noble and yet supposedly fathering a bastard just to protect Jon. The resemblance between Ned and Jon is through Ned’s sister.
Quix
P.S. Put Littlefinger down as my guess for the new POV in the next book, in addition to Cersei.
I think Sansa is getting enough experience to become the political force that Cersei wants to be. Cersei schemes and plots but is out-manouvered at every turn - and I don’t think she’s going to have even Jaime’s support for much longer. I think Sansa will learn from the terrible situations she’s constantly thrown into and grow into a very powerful woman. I just hope she doesn’t end up corrupted. Since her wolf was killed I see her as having less and less in common with the Starks.
Unfortunately I don’t think Tyrion will get a happy ending. He’s my favourite, but he’s now a kin-slayer and has pissed off Jaime, the only person who gives a damn about him (this was caused by a lie, so hopefully that can be rectified). There has been so much talk about the curse of kin-slaying (mostly from Old Nan and her stories from the Wall) that I just can’t see how he can sort things out for himself. I’d be very happy to be proven wrong, though…
And the sooner somebody does something horrible to Lord Frey, the better. The Red Wedding was one of the most disturbing things I’ve read lately. Breaking the guest-rights is also talked about as a reason for being cursed, so my hopes are high for some juicy retribution.
GuyMontag, it was Thoros’ (the red priest, in the tournament at the beginning but now hanging out with Beric) sword that was dipped in chemicals and set on fire - Gendry’s former master was the smith who complained about it.
Beric’s sword appears to be the real deal. And I have no idea about Stannis’ one - no chemicals, but not the same as Berics. Maybe an illusion?
I always thought that Melisandre’s prediction was more relevant to Dany, but if it’s not, then I reckon it’ll be about Beric. Stannis just doesn’t fit as well.
I am so glad you started this thread, gallows fodder. I finished the third book weeks ago, and I haven’t been able to get it out of my head, or start reading anything else.
Mr. Martin has a way with character arcs. The characters I started out disliking intensely (Daenerys) turn into the most fascinating people in the course of thes novels. Jaime… man, I want to hate Jaime. But seeing things from his perspective, seeing him rescue Brienne of Tarth, got him some grudging admiration. And then the realization that losing his hand made him an entirely different person…
I don’t know how much I’d want to see things from Cersei’s perspective. I’d very much like to have one person in the books that I can unreservedly despise.
I’m scared of Arya. Not for her. Of her. She’s set up to become a major psycho-killer. A far cry from the spunky kid that started off in Winterfell. And… does anyone else think that at some point, we’ll see Gendry sitting on the Iron Throne?
I recommended these books to a friend of mine, and he finished the first one the other day. He called me up, and mentioned that he really didn’t like Robb at the beginning of the novel, but that he started to respect him toward the end. He asked if Robb continued to grow in that direction. I didn’t tell him anything, but the image of Robb’s body, decapitated, his direwolf’s head sewn into its place and his crown nailed on top slammed back into my mind. Massively disturbing imagery.
MrVisible, the books do stick with you, don’t they? I’ve persuaded my brother to read them, just so I can talk about them with someone IRL.
On the message board I linked to in my first post, there are spoilers for the next book based on public readings Martin has done of his drafts, and there’s a thread dedicated to the new Cersei point of view. Those who attended the Cersei readings claim that her POV chapters do not make her into a sympathetic character. (Whew, I say. I don’t like her and was not looking forward to seeing her cast in a good light. Good? Cersei? Bah!)
Regarding Jon’s parents…I do skim sometimes, so I may have missed this, but is there anything in the text that states or implies what you guys have theorized above, or did you come up with that independently?
And I must confess…I would like to see the Hound and Sansa united, too. She has become one of my favorite characters (speaking of good character arcs), and I think they would have a lot to teach each other.
Ordinarily, I’d agree with Stringy about Tyrion not meeting with a happy ending, but he’s somehow escaped certain death before. He’ll be barbequed on a spit turning over the flames of hell and still find a way to weasle out of it.
Since the next series is supposed to begin 5 years later, that would mean Walder Frey passes the century mark wouldn’t it? He’s too stubborn to die, as he gleefully outlives his hungry descendents. Somehow I think he’s going to make it so that his keep is utterly destroyed and unusable, mucking up anybody’s attempt to move north and south. He’s like that.
Maybe I’m wrong about Sansa, but I still don’t think she’ll quite lose the stars in her eyes. She’s a victim, and will always remain so.
Hey, she’s thirteen…she still has a lot of room to grow.
According to this site Martin changed his mind, and the next book will begin where the last one left off but will cover a five-year period. (That info is found in the scrolling text box.)
I had forgotten that he had said something about saving the kingdom for the sake of the throne…hopefully, he’ll recognize that Jon is in a good position where he is.