Game of Thrones 8.06 "The Iron Throne" 5/19/2019 Show Discussion

[Smid]

Where did the massive hole in the wall go? it was previously at Castle Black, right? And yet they went through the little set of gates in the wall…

[Acsenray]

At the beginning of the series, so far as the members of the Nights Watch are concerned, their only job is to protect the Seven Kingdoms from the Wildlings.

The Wildlings constantly raided the farms and towns of the north. They even celebrated their own status as thieves and raiders, mocking the people of the North for planting and harvesting things that can be taken so easily.

Jon Snow’s own men murdered him for betraying his oath when he started helping the Wildlings.

So, the original purpose of the Night Watch might not have been to oppose the Wildlings, but that has been its main priority for centuries. Whether that needs to continue is in question, especially if the lifting of the Always Winter makes the beyond the Wall territories more abundant.

@Smid

Where did the massive hole in the wall go? it was previously at Castle Black, right? And yet they went through the little set of gates in the wall…

No, the hole was near Eastwatch by the Sea

[RickJay]

@DrCube

Now, the Iron Islands and the Riverlands were united when Aegon showed up, and the Crownlands didn’t exist, being divided between the Reach, the Stormlands and the Riverlands/Islands. So I think that’s where the “Seven” number comes from. But it doesn’t sound like it was ever a stable arrangement.

The Crownlands was invented after Aegon’s Conquest, to give the King something to directly rule around King’s Landing, which was also invented by Aegon I. It’s like the District of Columbia of Westeros.

The Iron Islands is the other outlier. It wasn’t one of the Seven Kingdoms, for what reason I don’t recall.

[SlackerInc]

I’m surprised to see so much sentiment here that is sort of implicitly pro-Brexit in tone. No one can seem to believe that if the North becomes independent, any of the other “kingdoms” would want to remain part of Westeros. But not long ago, Italy and Germany were a bunch of separate principalities that spoke the same language. They found strength in unifying. Everyone in Westeros seems to speak the “common tongue”, so perhaps outside of the North, they feel similarly.

@Stanislaus

Also on the second part above, it’s interesting that kind of an underlying point of the show is that the beginning and end of stories are arbitrary - we could have stopped at Ned’s death, or Robb’s, or the Night King’s. After all, we began in the middle of an ongoing saga of rebellions and treachery and had to get filled in on the details of major epoch-defining events like the Battle of the Trident as we went on. The crowning of Bran doesn’t bring a stop to the history of Westeros, and it’s good to think that for some people this is just the beginning of a story.

I really like this.

[Smid]

@DrCube

I see Ellis Dee already responded to this part. The Others were just a fairy tale, even to the Night’s Watch, until a couple seasons ago.

They weren’t the enemy when the Army of the Dead was marching. The living had to unite. But now, unless the Wildlings bend the knee and start following Southron laws, they’re the enemy again. Big threats unite people, but when the threats are dealt with, the people often fall into separate warring factions again. And as progressive as King Bran and Queen Sansa may be compared to the previous rulers, they still can’t abide thousands of violent anarchists within their borders.

They might have been a fairy tale to the Watch and everyone else until recently.

But the Night Watch was there to watch against the Others.

Wildlings came several thousand years later.

Their original purpose was that. Invented because of that. That was what they were watching on the walls.

It wasn’t their job to stop the violent anarchists.

Now, due to there being no Others to stop, they might ALSO protect against the wildlings, but they were in no way set up to protect against the wildlings.

[Acsenray]

@RickJay

The Crownlands was invented after Aegon’s Conquest, to give the King something to directly rule around King’s Landing, which was also invented by Aegon I. It’s like the District of Columbia of Westeros.

The Iron Islands is the other outlier. It wasn’t one of the Seven Kingdoms, for what reason I don’t recall.

This has been set forth more than once in this thread.

The Iron Islands was one of the Seven Kingdoms. The Riverlands was part of that kingdom, which was called the Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers.

[Acsenray]

@SlackerInc

I’m surprised to see so much sentiment here that is sort of implicitly pro-Brexit in tone. No one can seem to believe that if the North becomes independent, any of the other “kingdoms” would want to remain part of Westeros. But not long ago, Italy and Germany were a bunch of separate principalities that spoke the same language. They found strength in unifying. Everyone in Westeros seems to speak the “common tongue”, so perhaps outside of the North, they feel similarly.

Not so much pro-Brexit as it is Scottish independence in sentiment, which may become more popular in a Brexit world.

[Shakester]

@Smid

Where did the massive hole in the wall go? it was previously at Castle Black, right? And yet they went through the little set of gates in the wall…

The Wall came down at Eastwatch, not Castle Black.

ETA: Ninjaed.

[Smid]

@Polerius

My preferred ending:

After Jon stabs Dany, the Unsullied rush in and there is an epic scene of them piling on Jon and stabbing him to death (cue epic music and Jon falling down dead)
<snip>

The unsullied rush off and battle ensues.

The scene stays on Jon Snow.

After a bit, he jerks. Looks around, stands up. Guess the not-dead thing happened again…

[DigitalC]

@Smid

I don’t think I saw any representation of The Vale’s calvary in the Battle of Winterfall episode. It seemed they turned up, for Battle of the Bastards and went home again. Was Lord Royce anywhere to be seen since BoTB?

They were there in the battle of Winterfell, just not mounted. They fought with Brienne. That’s the Arryn house sigil.

[Smid]

@Ashtura

Because she didn’t like him and knew nobody else did either. He was set up from the beginning to be an incompetent blowhard.

Actually, I think we knew this, and that was the joke, but Sansa was either held by Cersei or hiding with Littlefinger when idiot Edmure did his stuff… So how would she know?

[Lamoral]

I think Edmure deserves some credit, the guy’s a survivor. He was buffaloed into accepting a marriage with the Freys by Robb, he had to endure shittiest wedding ever, but he scraped by all the same. In the intervening time between when he was finally freed from captivity, and the events of the final season, he could have potentially become ensnared in a limitless number of scenarios, all of them bad, but he managed to keep his head attached to his body. For that reason alone, I can’t help but like the poor shmuck.

[Stanislaus]

@DrCube

Mind telling us the book? Do you recommend it?

Sure - it’s Jonathon Sumption’s yet to be completed 5 volume narrative history. Vol 1 is Trial by Battle; subsequent titles are Trial by Fire, Divided Houses, and Cursed Kings. I’ve just started a re-read.

Each volume is massive (TbB is 672 pages) and Sumption’s approach is very much to start at the beginning and work his way forward year by year, month by month and at some points day by day. There’s an enormous amount of research behind it, much of it original administrative records as well as the various chroniclers. The first book was published in 1990; the last is still to come.

This is not the place to look for an overview or a thematic treatment. But if you want a really detailed insight into the reality of how medieval societies went to war, you won’t do much better. Currently it’s 1340 and Edward III has just had to abandon a major campaign because of lack of funds (admittedly for allies armies rather than his). The details of how money was planned to be raised, the difficulties of actually enforcing taxes and customs, and the gulf between costs and income are eye-opening. Edward literally broke not one but two Italian banking houses and pawned the Great Crown of England, and still failed to keep an army in the field. The Iron Bank sub-plot was bang on the money, so to speak.

(Edited to add: It’s worth noting that Sumption researched and wrote this magnum opus in his spare time from his day job as (at first) high-powered tax lawyer and (latterly) Supreme Court Judge. And what have you been doing with your productive time on this Earth, hmm?)

[Alessan]

@Smid

Actually, I think we knew this, and that was the joke, but Sansa was either held by Cersei or hiding with Littlefinger when idiot Edmure did his stuff… So how would she know?

It would take about 30 seconds with Edmure for Sansa to read him like a book, and dismiss him.

[Smid]

I’d say it had a lot of attributes of a Tolkien ending.

Frodo sailed off to the west with the elves. Oops, Arya sailed off to the west with, I dunno, some randos?

And Samwise settled and lived happily ever after.

[DrCube]

@Lamoral

I think Edmure deserves some credit, the guy’s a survivor.

Exactly. Of all the people I thought might survive the series, he wasn’t on my list.

[Acsenray]

@Lamoral

I think Edmure deserves some credit, the guy’s a survivor. He was buffaloed into accepting a marriage with the Freys by Robb, he had to endure shittiest wedding ever, but he scraped by all the same. In the intervening time between when he was finally freed from captivity, and the events of the final season, he could have potentially become ensnared in a limitless number of scenarios, all of them bad, but he managed to keep his head attached to his body. For that reason alone, I can’t help but like the poor shmuck.

Oh, I do like the poor schmuck. Great character. I’ve been worried about him for years. I hope he and his wife get along.

[RickJay]

@Alessan

It would take about 30 seconds with Edmure for Sansa to read him like a book, and dismiss him.

I’d forgotten all about him and dismissed him in ten seconds.

[Smid]

Hmmn, further thoughts on the Tolkien ending…

Jon Snow is clearly a perpetual Strider (pre Aragon), wandering about going “Still not king!”

Now, was Jamie Legolas (except now Handolas)? The Hound is clearly Gimli in stilts. Merry and Pippin does back to Bran and co, pre their quest…

Gandalfs, not sure.

I don’t have any struggle with Ned being Boromir though. It’s almost as if he was cast ten years before…

[Nauplius]

So the Night’s Watch will continue to be filled with criminals and other undesirables from the Six Kingdoms and the now independent North is just supposed to be okay with this?