Now that the TV show is seeming to have caught up with, and in some cases overtaken then books (I have not read the books), there seems to be a declining quality in the storyline.
The latest episode where Arya behaves stupidly by flaunting her money in public, then gets stabbed by the Waif and jumps into infested waters, and not only doesn’t die but is able to then parkour throughout the city and outrun a fit and non-injured girl, is a case where they could have done a MUCH better job with it.
For those who have read the books and are also watching the show, when there were deviations in the two, have you found the GRRM version of events of differing quality than the TV version? If yes, is there a pattern, i.e. one is consistently better, or is it a mixed bag, i.e. sometimes the book version is better and sometimes the TV version is better?
Now that the TV show has started to overtake the book, will we see a decline in storytelling and plot and the use of TV tropes, or do you expect it to remain at roughly the same level?
For the purposes of this thread, all info about the show is shown with no spoilers, and any plot info from the book that is different from the show should be put in spoiler boxes.
Up until this season, I’ve thought that the showrunners have handled the adaptation very well. There are clearly tons of changes that just have to be made for the TV format, and most of the changes have been good ones. Tightening plots down, combining minor characters to ease the burdern on viewers, and cutting sidelines that don’t lead anywhere interesting.
Most readers agree that books 4 and 5 are weaker that the first 3, either by a little or a lot. I got the impression that the showrunners were rushing through those books, eager to start creating their own, more original content. And I was okay with that, given how it’s gone so far.
And then this season came. I don’t know what the hell they are doing. The Dorne plot was a disaster. Myrcella’s death and usurping Doran’s throne are big deals, and they’ve been forgotten. Arya’s plot has been baffling. Meereen stuff has been meandering. Some of the plot threads have been ok to great, but you’ll notice that the best of them (Jaime, Jon Snow, Sandor) have been closely tied to book events that got timeshifted, and might be the result of Martin’s influence.
I’m very worried about the resolution of this season and the remainder of the show, if they don’t find a good path again.
I’m starting to think there was a point when the integrity went. It happens in US shows - the point where money out-decided artistic integrity. Like, for example, half way through S2 of Homeland.
I really hope I’m wrong because it’s so rare you get ‘event tv’ now, but the resurrection of Jon Snow is troubling to me, and little since in the show has resonated as it did before that happened.
I have generally thought Martin’s books were better than the show, but for the first few TV show seasons I was ok with it, because they are different mediums. My favorite part of Martin’s books would have have been very difficult to show visually (namely, the insane world building that Martin does). I actually am a huge fan of Book 4 (esp after a recent re-read), but found Book 5 to be a decline in the beginning and then become very good at the end. I found the showrunners’ treatment of it to be fairly poor. Obviously speeding through it. And now they have to write their own plot rather than adapt an already written plot, they seem to be very bad at it. Alas.
I disagree. I think it has more to do with what I call the “Lost effect”. That is to say, the earlier seasons seem better and more interesting when the story hints to this much larger world or mystery. But as the seasons progress, the writers write themselves into a hole. Some elements that were merely hinted at end up as dead ends or totally lame. And eventually, the writers struggle to tie everything together into an ending that is cohesive and satisfying.
I too am worried about resorting to tropes and Walking Dead gimmicks. Killing characters just to shock the audience, instead of driving the plot in an unexpected direction.
At first, when the show was tweaking the books, I thought that the show’s pacing and editing made the story better. Now I’m worried. We know the Hodor storyline came straight from Martin, and that was great. We also know the Dorne storyline diverged completely from the book and was shit.
However, the show improved on the books in terms of:The merging of Sansa and that Jane character was genius, in my opinion. And that loooooong, boring boat ride–blah!
The Arya story, we cannot know until the rest of the series is published. If Martin never finishes, then the show’s writing will be 100% better than nothing.
If a crap storyline expends time and money that could have been spent better elsewhere, then it’s a lot worse than nothing. There’s nothing more frustrating than waiting a week on tenterhooks for the next episode only to have to sit through 20 minutes of Sam & Cassie whining away and Arya stick fight #7. There are so many superb & complex plotlines, I don’t know why they can’t see how weak, boring & drawn out these are by comparison.
I’m with the camp who was extremely disappointed with Arya chase scene – in another thread, I said it was what I would expect from an SNL spoof of GOT — but in general, I agree that the last two years of the series has been much better than the last two books, which were twice as long as they needed to be.
Martin went on and on about Tyrion’s riverboat journey to meet Daenerys, and it was boring as hell. The series only spent about ten minutes on it, which was all it deserved. And there was an equally long arc about a Dornish prince traveling to propose marriage to Daenerys, which all came to nothing. I’m hoping the TV writers skip it entirely.
Though that comes from the same complaint - when the showrunners depart from the books, they tend to have no idea what they are doing. Dorne was a far superior and interesting story in AFFC and ADWD than it was with whatever they were doing in the show.
I agree, and I’m conflicted at who to blame here. I think the Arya/Waif storyline was actually well written if looked at from just a script/screenplay perspective. I think it fell down horribly in the editing and directing portion though. So much wrong with sprinting/leaping with gut wounds, terminator stalking, tired action tropes, etc that wouldn’t be evident on paper but can be implemented disastrously during the shoot and edit. Given the multiple locales and crew units, this whole piece just screamed “3rd-tier shoot unit does a rush-job at the deadline”.
I think that GRRM’s writing was superior, but the plot moved far too slowly. Now the plot pacing is too fast. It’s like GRRM told them the rest of his plot outline and they realized they had to really pick up the pace if they ever were going to finish. Plus the show has always had a hard time deciding if it was prestige TV or just soft core porn with better acting; it lurches between the two.
It has toned it down in the past couple of seasons, but let’s not forget the sexposition of the first couple of seasons. Remember the brothel scene where the two prostitutes go at it while Littlefinger explained his motivations? Yeah that was integral to the plot.
And Dany’s boobs are only integral to the plot to the extent that GRRM could not possibly have anticipated the implications of his storyline of a hot young queen who is impervious to fire in a world that does not have flame-retardant clothing.
It feels like the current season reverts more to low-brow TV tropes than in past seasons but maybe it’s just the bad taste of Arya. Stuff happens because it makes for a fun or intense scene but then doesn’t hold up when the broader context is brought in.