This thread is for discussion of the show, the books, and how they might relate, or pretty much anything you want to discuss. If you happen to get an actual spoiler (like some entertainment magazine discovers and reveals a future plot point), then treat that, and only that, like a spoiler. Everything else - show, book, supplemental DVD material, worldbuilding books, and whatever else, is fair game.
As we have done in the past, there will be weekly episodic threads for TV show discussion only. 8.01 is here.
In the “look back at the episode” sequence after the show, one of the showrunners flat out said “only Targaryens can ride dragons”. I know that’s not the case in the books, and I didn’t think it had been established on the show either. I had assumed it was just a common misconception.
Like Dany being fireproof, I guess that misconception people have about the books has made it into canon in the show. If that were the case, I wonder why Jon thought he could ride a dragon? Because Dany told the dragon to let him? Or is that something we’re supposed to know but the characters don’t?
The dragons had been friendly with him previously. I don’t think there’s any reason for him to believe he absolutely couldn’t ride them. Lots of guys have done potentially dangerous things to impress a woman.
Remember John Arryn and then Ned Stark figured out Robert Baratheon’s kids were not his because of their hair color. Both of them die for that revelation.
I asked the group I was watching with why Jon’s hair is not blond. No one had an answer for it.
Wait, what makes you think that’s not the case in the books? I mean, yeah, they don’t need to necessarily be Targaryen, but they do seem to at least need to have Valyrian blood. All the non-Targs who rode dragons during the Dance of Dragons were said to be ‘dragonseed’ (i.e. bastards of either Targaryens or Velaryons).
No one in your group knows the difference between dominant and recessive traits? The obvious assumption is that dark hair is dominant and blonde hair is recessive (like our own universe), which is why they knew Robert’s kids weren’t his - because his own dark hair would’ve carried over to the kids. There’s no reason to think the silver Targaryen hair isn’t recessive either, especially with all the Targ inbreeding that happened.
What misconception is that? In the books, anyone who has tried to go near the dragons who isn’t a Targ has been burned to death. The books went to great length to show this via particular characters. Which non-Targ has rode a dragon in the books?
Also, Dany is definitely resistant to fire/fireproof in the books. The misconception is that that all Targaryens are fireproof. They invariably learn this about themselves in unfortunate ways.
Dany is not (GRRM has explicitly said this) fireproof. She’s resistant to heat of the hot bath variety, but she cannot withstand fire. Her survival of Drogo’s funeral pyre was a one time magical ceremony that involved a blood sacrifice and the birth of dragons.
In the books, who has gone near the dragons that wasn’t an enemy besides Quentyn? Sample size of 1 seems to be pretty small. I don’t think it’s in the main series, but I’m pretty sure that the World of Ice and Fire also explicitly says dragon riding isn’t uniquely Targaryen. At a minimum, other Valyrian houses had and rode dragons.
If you dig into some of the GRRM ASOIAF material outside the main series of books, there are several non-Targaryens who have ridden dragons, including “smallfolk” (i.e. peasants) called up during times of war. During the “Dance of the Dragons” (Targaryen civil war that essentially wiped out dragon-kind about a century or so prior to the events of the show), there were more dragons than Targaryens, and some of the Targaryen lords promised noble titles and land to any person who could tame a dragon and ride it into battle on their side. Most would-be dragonriders were roasted, but a handful of random non-Targaryen smallfolk successfully tamed dragons, and a few of those tried (and failed) to use their dragons to carve out kingdoms of their own.
They may have been referred to that, but there wasn’t any evidence they were. In “Fire & Blood” it speaks to how Jacaerys Velaryon asked for dragonseeds to ride dragons for Rhaenyra, but had it open to anyone would could claim a dragon. At the very least no one had any idea if Hugh Hammer, Ulf the White, and Nettles had any Valyrian blood.
I also thought it was interesting that Jon was said to be named Aegon (I don’t recall if that was mentioned last season… it may have been). I guess it’s somewhat a not to the Aegon (or fAegon depending on your view on the matter) in the books - I can’t imagine Rheagar would call two of his sons the same name.
No, in the books Jon will be Aegon, too, I’m almost positive. Rhaegar read a prophecy which at first he interpreted to apply to himself, but later realized it would be his son instead. He named his firstborn Aegon because of the prophecy. He knew the first Aegon was dead already by the time Jon was born, so he rolled the dice again and named Jon Aegon. Third time’s a charm, and Jon will ultimately be the one who fulfills the prophecy.
I feel the opposite, at least in this episode – I got a big kick out of how disconcerting he is to every other character and how uncomfortable they are around him. As they should be!