Lame isn’t (is no longer?) used as a pejorative against the disabled while gay is and still has very negative connotations to it so the comparison isn’t valid.
In case it isn’t clear, by “gay is”, I meant “gay is used as a pejorative”.
Sloppy writing on my part. Sorry about that.
Can you believe I’ve been thinking about this most of the all evening and through this morning? When I got home, I read some more comments and then went out. And continied to think about this whole topic and the points people have made.
I haven’t been completely in a daze or preoccupied or anything. But it’s been in and out of my head all night.
I’ll try to keep this post short and to the point (But that’s doubtful). So I’m not going to point out specific people or bother with quotes and all that. Just know that I took every single comment to heart and I’ve thought deeply about them and considered the message in each one.
Warning, free flowing Personal Dialouge Style writing ahead.
What I’ve decided is this:
Firs of all, I think I was way off on the whole idea that I pretty much had to use the pejorative, “gay” all the time if at all. That if I mad an effort in front of certain people to conceal this fact, then I was somehow hiding it from them. And that this in itself was a bad thing. If it’s all out in the open, then everythings good. If I’m hiding stuff or treating certain people different just because they happen to be gay, then that’s wrong. Everyone should get treated the same. And I shouldn’t have to talk differently around certain people. So either it was always ok, or it was always wrong. But there was no middle ground.
But damn. :wally :wally
At some point, I eventually realized that there IS of course a middle ground. And there are already SO MANY things that I wouldn’t say in front of people I just met. There are so, so many offensive things that I say all the time. But it’s always amongst friends. And it’s completely understood that these statements are jokes. They’re made just to be funny.
But I would NOT say these things to people I just met. Or people I don’t really know. I only say these things around people who I’m sure know the person I am. Only around people who really know me. Not to strangers or to brand new friends or whatever.
I’ve always had this FILTER. But I haven’t really thought about it before. I didn’t really realize it, I guess. I guess it’s just natural.
Like, the other day I was inviting some of my friends to a Western Line Dancing type bar. We got to talking about country music and rednecks or whatever. And I was saying how they should just try it. Because, though I really hate rednecks and I don’t really like country music, I still have a lot of fun when I go there.
Anyway, then another friend walks up. He asked where we were thinking about going that night. When I told him, he kinda gave the smirk many young black males would. I quickly told him, “Dont worry. I’ll just tell everyone you belong to me and you’re not for sale. Then they wont fuck with you any”. Of course every laughed and we got back to work.
But I would not make a comment like that around someone who wasn’t a friend.
And the reason is because they know me and things like that are ok between friends.
But then… some friends are different. Some friends may be sensitive to certain things. And, as friends, we should respect that.
It just so happens that NOTHING is EVER sacred around my friends. The fat friend suffers the fat jokes. The Jewish friend endures the Jew jokes, I had to hear all the “big huge chin” jokes. And so on. But these things we say don’t make us evil, they make us friends. That’s just how we are, and that’s just our personalities. But not every person I befriend is actually going to be on that level of friendship with me. And people who are not friends at all… well I would never think of making such comments.
So to not call things gay in front of strangers or brand new friends is not “hiding” anything. I’m not trying to conceal an evil trait or hide my monstrous true nature! I would just be showing the same respect I ALREADY show by not cussing in formal or business settings, or not making random, insensitive, antiPC, racist-like comments. When made around people you know, these statements are humorous, sometimes shocking but they get a chuckle. That’s the point. The whole point is that they’re juvenile. But that’s it. They’re kind of a satire against people who really do think that way.
I might make a hundred jokes next month to my Jewish friend about being scared of the microwave, or not being able to use his fireplace, or not using his oven to cook a holiday meal… whatever.
But there is no way I would even let slip such a comment if his grandmother was in the room. A lady who (probably) survived through much persecution. And especially not if she was a survivor at a Nazi Death Camp.
There have been many statements made about how using “gay” in this manner is juvenile. And “why do you want to talk like a 12 year old” and “why don’t you grow up” and all that.
Well I think it’s pretty much agreed apon that it’s young, informal, silly slang. Yeah, but that’s the point. At first, I just kinda read past those comments. My reaction was basically. “Well duh. Many things I do or say are juvenile. If everything was all prim and proper then I’d walk around like I had a stick up my ass and I was some kind of pompous elitist socialite aristocrat or something” It’s just slang. Slang usually IS juvenile!! I don’t use slang around strangers or …
… and that was it. That’s when I finally slapped myself in the face.
The issue is familiarity.
If I was placed in a room with a bunch of random strangers, I would act a certain way. I would speak properly and unoffensively. I would not use profanity or make dead-baby or racist jokes or whatever.
If I was then placed in a room with strangers who were all my age, I would act a certain way. Certainly at a level less formal than that above, but still short my “normal” self.
As we tightened the parameters more (say strangers who we my age AND male as well… then maybe all my age, male, and similar profession) or if we simply let time pass (as in, the random strangers of various ages are now people I’ve lived and worked with for three weeks)
Eventually we’d get to a certain level of familiarty where I would normaly feel comfortable with certain slang and/or profanity. There would be a point where I hadn’t quite reached the Racist/Bigotry and tastless humor and personal insults, but where I would normally feel comfortable calling things Gay or Retarded, and generally not feeling inhibited in my use of profanity.
… And I actually use A LOT of profanity. Sorry that’s just me. One problem I have on these boards is that I feel much less inhibited in the Pit, so I pretty much type freely and uninhibited. When other’s read my writing, they think I’m foaming at the mouth and going nuts and stuff. But no… that’s just me. That’s just how I talk. That’s how I tell stories. I’m not super pissed or anything. I’m just talking normal.
But anyway, back on topic.
I made comments earlier and actually many times in other threads about people being too sensitive and people getting offended easily. I still agree with this.
But appeasing these sensitive people does not mean I need to change the type of person I am. It just means I need to understand what offends them, and make an effort to NOT DO IT. I’m not changing anything about me, really.
I already wouldn’t make jokes about retarded kids to someone with retarded kids. That doesn’t mean that I can’t personally laugh at such jokes. Or that I have to feel badly about laughing at those jokes.
And, when we’re around strangers-- because we don’t happen to know if they’re children are disabled, or dead, or in the hospital, or are dwarfs or have cancer or whatever— we don’t make comments, use words, tell stories, or crack jokes that might possibly offend a person who does.
Otherwise we’d be putting the big huge foot in our mouths.
(which I actually seem to do quite a bit. but on accident)
So, I guess to some it all up, this is pretty much how I’m changing my view on the matter:
Whereas I had thought since the Perjorative form of “gay” is not said in an anti-gay/anti-lesbian context or with a homophobic or anti-homosexual tone, then it should not be offensive to anyone. And that a person who took offense to the word was just being too literal.
I now know from this poll that the WORD ALONE in that manner is offensive. It’s efect can range from a mere wince, to downright disgust, dishonor, distaste, and disrespect.
From now on, I will consider this phrasing to be extremely offensive and act accordingly. I will no longer use this idiom around anyone but close friends, and those I know are ok with it.
No longer will the unknown closeted person have to feel uncomfortable or unwanted around me because of the words I use. And no longer will the person (who’s gay but I don’t know it. cause damn, my gaydar sucks) sitting next to me and overhearing my conversation, be convinced that I’m a faggot hating bigot (or simply am ignorant asshole) without ever having met me.
I think this is the right way to look at it. Any person who would still be upset that I’d ever use the phrase at all, would probably freak out a helluva lot more over just the normal things I say.
And at first I was thinking: Well, if I decide it’s offensive, then I should NEVER say it. And continuing to say it amongst friends, while hiding that fact would be wrong and hypocritical.
But now I just don’t believe that’s the case. The reason I shouldn’t use the phrase openly around strangers or new aquaintences is not because it’s EVIL… it’s because it’s OFFENSIVE.
What truly makes a word or phrase evil is the spirit in which it is spoken. And using an offensive idiom among close friends is not the same as secretly bad mouthing all the niggers and faggots.
I can’t stand it when a redneck thinks that just because he is alone among white people, that it’s ok to start talking bad about the blacks and the gays. As if EVERYONE just agrees with him. Like the whole white world happens to be just as damn hateful and ignorant.
I was nervous that if I stoped saying “Man this is gay” around gays, then I’d be like that guy. The guy who waits til there’s no gays around so he can start bad mouthing all the faggots…
But avoiding certain word usage out of respect, is not the same as that guy. So I don’t have to think of myself a hypocrit, or something.
And besides, it’s not like I’m only going to stop saying it around known homosexuals. I’m going to stop saying it around most all people. Except one or two friends once and a while, whenever it seems to fit.
And with luck, it will eventually be replaced by a better, sillier, more juvenile but less offensive term.
It isn’t used nearly as much in the sense it used to denote, but I’d think twice before using it around someone our age or older who has a noticeable (or even not as noticeable) physical disability, especially a rather permanent one. Hell, use your mind and think of a creative way to describe the putrescence of something:) Same goes for retarded and fat/ugly, which I think are becoming less accepted (certainly on this board). Come to think of it, what percent of this country’s population knows how we used “dumb” 50 or 100 (or, most obviously, 150+) years ago? The meaning has certainly changed markedly.
I think that’s exactly it. You’re stopping use of the word in a perjorative sense not because you don’t want to stir shit up but because it isn’t polite. To me, at least, there’s a distinctly significant difference.
I don’t know. As I said upthread, my sister has cerebral palsy, which includes a host of physical defects, and I’d not even think of the implications of calling something lame around my mother or older sister, both of which are more sensitive about that sort of thing than I am.
Or, to go even further, I work as a caretaker for someone that’s restricted to a wheelchair and requires my assistance to do most chores and I wouldn’t blink at saying something was lame around her either. I’ll ask her opinion on it the next time we talk though. I’m now curious
And, to go that last little bit, I’m in a wheelchair right now (the irony!) too and wouldn’t care if someone said something was lame around me, assuming I even made the connection.
Hmm. I guess for most people, the word lame has been put in the box along with idiot, dumb, etc. (certainly cretin) as words whose original meanings have been largely lost in the sense that they are by and large no longer intended in common use.
Yes… that’s what I was attempting to say in my original post about it and apparently failing.
With that being said, they are analgous in that lame/pathetic has superseded lame/disabled much the same way gay/homosexual has passed gay/happy in common usage. Just not in the way IKinSpelGud was positing.
Huh? I’ve inquired about his username before and he said he just made it up.
Well, even though (as Monsieur Hassenpfeffer will point out), Bambi was a boy, it’s not the most masuline sounding of epithets. I think that’s what Aesiron was referring to.
That, and just some friendly teasing, yes.
I don’t think that using the term to mean the act of rendering something less than fully operational or something that has been rendered less than fully functional is offensive. I do think that using it to refere to people is quite offensive.
Extermely offensive usage: So, how’s it feel to be married to a cripple!*
Less offensive: He was crippled in a car accident almost twenty years ago.
Not offensive: I’m crippling the user add function until I can figure out how to stop it from making every new user an administrator.
*Said to me in a loud jolly voice by by a young priest as I held the door for hubby who was on Canadian crutches and pushing some AV equipment on a cart. I told him exactly how offensive I found that.
Bear_Nenno that was a verrrry long post and I admit I skimmed a bit, but I would like to congratulate you for it. It looks like you really put some thought into this, and I think you came to a good conclusion.
I echo much of Sol Grundy’s comments. I’ve used the term myself in irony with my partner, and he to me. ----ohhhh! Sol was much more eloquent than I.—I’m trying not to use the term either, but I do feel more of a right to use it, in much the same way that black comics are okay with using the n-word.
So it’s probably slightly abbrasive to me, but I have a thick skin. It might make me less inclined to get to know you if you were a stranger.
Bear in mind that you can never be certain there aren’t gay people around.
…or people with gay relatives or loved ones, or other people to whom it’s important.
Yeah. I understand that.
That’s what I was trying to get at with this sentence.
… Damn I was really rambling on in that post.
It was important and well thought-out rambling. FWIW, I read the entirety of the post, but then you’ve seen how long some of my posts are;)
recently I’ve become a bit more selfconcious of when I say something was gay… now that I’ve found out that a good frind of mine became gay shortly after he moved to california ( no connection) and now I’ve become a bit more concious of when I used the word, but I don’t know, Gay kinda has begun to have this stigma around it as people have become so concious of descrimination… gerr it bothers me, it’s line the word queer… It angers me, queer is such a cool word to me, and I like to use it in common conversations… but now it meens something completely diffrent then what it really means… I think that people need to be more concerned with the intend behind what they say then what they actually say… I think that people just need to loosen up in that regard… and… damn I lost my point, but I’ll just end this by saying, we all talk how we do… some people use gay as a derogatory term others dont… just because I say something’s gay dosen’t mean I dislike gay people…
stuie, I understand what you mean, and I appreciate when you say that you don’t dislike gay people and that your friend is gay.
However, you need to realize what it sounds like from this end. Imagine yourself as a kid, 14 or 15, just starting to realize you’re gay; trying very hard to figure out if you’ll be safe if you decide to be honest with your closest friends about something that’s very central to your life.
Can you see how it would make it very difficult to trust someone who used the word for what you are as a way to insult people, whether or not the person actually would support you if you were to come out?
When I was in that situation, I have to say I was much quicker to trust someone who, instead, took the time to tell people that wasn’t cool, that “gay” isn’t an insult and shouldn’t be used as one. Even if I wasn’t out to that person, it made me feel I could trust them; it made me feel safer, and it made me feel that if I came out in that environment, even if things turned against me at least I would probably have that person as an ally.
As you may know, there used to be an expression in common use, “to jew down the price.” It meant to haggle, and was originally based on the stereotype that Jews were stingy swindlers. Another expression was “to get jewed,” meaning “to get swindled.” It came to be that people would say those things without even thinking of Jews, but as you can imagine, that’s pretty cold comfort to a Jewish person who would hear those kinds of expressions and wonder whether the person using them really thought that all Jews were thieves and crooks or not.
You have to take into account what someone who falls into that category will hear when you use those expressions, and think carefully about whether that’s the message you really want to convey.