Old E, the fact that you named this thread “Gay Pride WTF?!!!”, and singled out gays for your rant, then tried to claim that, no, your gripe was with any non-civil-service group separating themselves out and marching in a parade and not gays specifically, isn’t fooling anyone. Why didn’t you name the thread “Why Not Only Police and Firefighters In Parades?” Nope, your gripe is obviously with homosexuals specifically, which makes you a bigot.
[[As for your opposition to gay marriages, perhaps that does not involve hatred of gays on your part. Perhaps you would grace us with your explanation as to why gays should be singled out and denied rights granted to heterosexual couples? (Keeping in mind, of course, many big-city governments and large corporations routinely grant same-sex couples rights of survivorship and dependant health care coverage).
Suppose you tell us why a marriage license should be denied two people who are no different from you and me, save their sexual orientation? ]] Nickrz
I don’t feel especially strongly about the gay marriage issue, one way or another, since most of the benefits thereof can be obtained separately. I would note, though, that the government grants certain benefits and duties via legal marriage for the purpose of fostering procreation and child-rearing. As a general proposition, this interest is not significantly advanced by recognizing same-sex marriages.
[[Suppose you tell us why the Federal government should not have included “sexual orientation” as one of the protected classes for workplace harassment and discrimination?]]
I clearly think it should be included, and I have every expectation that this will become the law within a few years.
Well, I’ve never heard of a couple being denied the right to marry because they couldn’t or didn’t plan to have children. Women over childbearing age are allowed to marry. So I think you have to look elsewhere for an explanation. Homophobia is really the only one I can imagine.
{{[[the government grants certain benefits and duties via legal marriage for the purpose of fostering procreation and child-rearing. As a general proposition, this interest is not significantly advanced by recognizing same-sex marriages.]]
Well, I’ve never heard of a couple being denied the right to marry because they couldn’t or didn’t plan to have children. Women over childbearing age are allowed to marry. So I think you have to look elsewhere for an explanation. Homophobia is really the only one I can imagine.}} ruadh
Well, there’s no doubt that homophobia plays a role, but nevertheless what I stated is a substantial, non-discriminatory reason. Most laws operate on some level of generality (that’s why, e.g., we don’t let anyone 12-years-old drive a car, regardless of their individual abilities). Similarly, I don’t want the government inquiring into the status of women’s wombs, nor the intentions of couples.
Hey, for the most part, I don’t really care about the issue.
“I don’t feel especially strongly about the gay marriage issue, one way or another, since most of the benefits thereof can be obtained separately. I would note, though, that the government grants certain benefits and duties via legal marriage for the purpose of fostering procreation and child-rearing. As a general proposition, this interest is not significantly advanced by recognizing same-sex marriages.” Big Iron
Well, there’s also the next-of-kin issues. I’ve heard some horror stories about life-partners not allowed to be at the loved one’s deathbed.
I say, let the gays get married! Why should only straight people suffer like this?
Lynn the Packrat
Please show me one single instance where I have called anyone a homophobe or bigot outside this forum. “All” my posts? Heehee. Sweeping generalizations will get you everywhere, my man. FYI, criticism of our ideas either makes them stronger or weaker as the case may be, but in either event ignorance usually takes a back seat, and that’s the whole purpose of Cecil and The Straight Dope - careful examination of our attitudes, preconceptions, misconceptions etc. Without healthy criticism we are lost. Nobody is above it, and nobody is below it.
As for my “childish name-calling” well… that’s all part of the game here in the pit, dood. If you are going to post inflammatory anti-gay topics here, you will surely incur my wrath (such as it is) and you can certainly expect to be labeled with the simplest term that describes your condition. You have not done anything to demonstrate you don’t deserve those labels, and you have not given me one valid point to take you to task with, just a bunch of emotional ranting and raving. I hate to be trite, but if the shoe fits, wear it and if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the BBQ.
Gay pride float on parade? Why the heck not? What is the big deal anyway…??
Should same sex couples allow to marry? Being born and raised in Fenno-scandia…my opinion is pretty stereotypical… Why the hell not? Again what the heck is a big deal here anyway?
The whole issue is a lot of hot air blown up by bunch of windbags…sheesh…
I do firmly belive that same sex couples should have same rights and responsibiliteis as opposite sex couples. I can’t get over the bigotry.
Cogito Ergo Vroom
I think therefore I ride fast…
[[“I don’t feel especially strongly about the gay marriage issue, one way or another, since most of the benefits thereof can be obtained separately. I would note, though, that the government grants certain benefits and duties via legal marriage for the purpose of fostering procreation and child-rearing. As a general proposition, this interest is not significantly advanced by recognizing same-sex marriages.” Big Iron
Well, there’s also the next-of-kin issues. I’ve heard some horror stories about life-partners not allowed to be at the loved one’s deathbed.]] Lynn
Hey, like I said , I have no particular objection to the idea, but (a) this could be resolved by specific legislation, or (b) a will.
Why should gay people get a pride parade? you ask.
Shit, I’m damn proud of having the mental stamina to deal with assholes like this! Gays and lesbians deserve a parade, not to mention an Oscar and a Nobel Peace Prize for putting up with bigotry our whole lives. Sheesh.
Why Gay pride? Two reasons, in my mind:
-
People who have been persecuted in society for arbitrary reasons have been excluded from society for so long that they have developed their own culture. Every day and everything about our society is a celebration of a culture that is foreign to them. Next time you feel the need to complain about people who are different, remember that it is your ATTITUDE that has created that difference. Minorities are defined and created by the majority. Since gays have been denied by society the very dignity that the rest of the heterosexual society takes for granted. It is natural to want to take that dignity back.
-
To piss off homophobes. Hell, if I were gay, (or ANY kind of minority, for that matter. Truth is, I’m about as majority they come) I would get no greater pleasure than enraging those people who spew bigotry and hatred. Sure its risky, but if they don’t shoot you, it so much fun to piss off irrationally ignorant people.
(BTW, if the first words out of your mouth are “I am not a homophobe but…” Guess what? You’re a homophobe.
Jason R Remy
“Open mindedness is not the same thing as empty mindedness.”
– John Dewey Democracy and Education (1916)
(right after a gay kiss) Incidentally, girls, if the guy you’re with went “Ewww!” or made some comment, he’s what we call a “closet case”.
-DeeDee, “The Opposite of Sex”
matt_mcl said - "Why should gay people get a pride parade? you ask. Shit, I’m damn proud of having the mental stamina to deal with assholes like this! Gays and lesbians deserve a parade, not to mention an Oscar and a Nobel Peace Prize for putting up with bigotry our whole lives.
Matt, I’d love to know what you think the Jews deserve. I can’t think of a group that has been more persecuted in the history of mankind.
I think one of the points Old E is trying to make is that we’re NOT blind when it comes to this kind of thing. He finds it silly that people are marching in a parade honoring St. Patrick (or Thanksgiving, or whatever) under the blanket of bringing attention to their sexuality and/or way of life. I, too, think it’s a little silly, and a little bit of the “in your face” sort of mentality. But that’s neither here nor there.
What IS interesting is that we all bring our own personal prejudices to the plate. Had Old E been referring to the Ku Klux Klan in his original post, I doubt he would get the vehement replies that he did. Many, if not most, people think of the KKK as “bad” and wouldn’t be very happy to see a large KKK presence in their local parade. We’d all support that, wouldn’t we?
Another example. A good friend of mine told me his company was hiring an Italian man. Before he started working, people made a lot of jokes about “Watch out, he’ll call his mafia brothers!” and that sort of thing. Not disparaging jokes, but jokes that incorporated his nationality. Nobody thought twice about it until my friend pointed out that had the man been black, or Mexican, or Jewish, and the same sorts of jokes had been made, somebody would have been fired.
This PC thing has gotten a little bit out of control. It is possible to notice someone’s sexual preference, ethnicity, or race, and comment on it WITHOUT being racist, a homophobe, or whatever you want to call it. I do question whether or not a parade is the best place to bring attention to one’s sexuality, as I question whether it’s the best place to say “I hate blacks” or “I’m a survivor of breast cancer” or other such things. It’s not a slam against a specific group - it’s simply saying that a parade isn’t the best place to say what you want to say. Put it in the newspaper, do some charity work, or do other things to bring publicity to your cause.
On a side note, a group that HAS somewhat changed their profile is Harley Motorcyle riders. You all know the stereotype of the Big Scary Harley Dude. In my area, they’ve been trying to change that. They didn’t all dress up in their leathers and march in a parade. They started doing charity work, and things like group motorcycle rides that collected money for certain causes. They also made sure that the motorcycle rallies were more or less clean, weren’t overly loud (or were in places where loud bands, etc. were OK) and that fights didn’t break out. So far, it’s been working.
Ku Klux Klan is about who you hate. Homosexuality is about who you love. The difference between the two is crystal clear.
Bravo…
Someone on another thread asked if I was “bigotted against bigots.” The fact is there is nothing wrong with disliking (and even publily expressing that dislike) people who spew hatred and incite harm against other human beings.
Jason R Remy
“Open mindedness is not the same thing as empty mindedness.”
– John Dewey Democracy and Education (1916)
OK, so it’s all right to promote things that are about “love” but not things that are about “hate” or things that “incite harm.”
Ponder two points - would it be OK to have a group of people against the Ku Klux Klan express their opinions in public? Are they for “love” because they are marching in honor of civil rights, or are they for “hate” because they are publicly denouncing a specific group of people (the KKK) ?
And what about the people who, because of religious or other beliefs, feel that homosexuality indeed does “incite harm” against other people? I’m not asking whether you think it’s right or wrong for them to feel that way - I personally think it’s wrong, but that’s beside the point. I’m saying, take a person who in his or her heart of hearts, truly believes that homosexuality is wrong, and is harmful to people. To that person, this group IS expressing hate and harm, not “love.”
It’s all opinions and personal beliefs, people. You can’t say that it’s OK for one group to march because they’re for “love” and another can’t because they’re for “hate” because it’s ALL subjective, no matter how many people happen to agree with you. The Constitution also supports this. You’re free to agree or disagree with any cause you want. But taking that one step farther and allowing or disallowing certain groups to assemble based on what you agree or disagree with is WRONG. If the Gay Pride people are allowed to march in the parade, the KKK is allowed as well. My point was that a parade is not the place to push EITHER point - let’s just keep the politics out of something as light as a parade.
Ah… ain’t moral relativism grand! It allows people like this:
to defend all people in the world without feeling guilty.
Yes, the KKK has the right to march, protest, publish newsletters, recruit new members, and do anything else that any other group is allowed to do. Our country is a free one, and these people have the same rights as anyone else.
I also have the right to NOT agree with them, and indeed to public display WHY I do not agree with them.
I hate to say it, but everything is NOT subjective and relative. Merely because you “feel” that a person is inciting harm, does not mean that they actually are. Reality exists; whether or not you accept it is up to you. I can say that the sun moves around the earth, that it’s three miles away, and it’s name is “Ralph.” It does NOT mean that I should be taken seriously when I express these beliefs. Likewise, merely because someone “feels” that harm is being caused does not mean we must take them seriously. Not all beliefs and feelings are good. Some are outright hateful, and harmful to society. HOWEVER, this does not mean that we can unlawfully stop people from expressing them. There are other means of minimizing the harm done by hatred in this country that do not involve curtailing rights.
I still feel that the KKK should not be saying what they are, and if they all woke up tomorrow and decided their whole philosophy was flawed, and they stopped being racist, the world will be a much better place. The point is: we DO have to allow everyone the same rights to express their beliefs. We DO NOT have to accept those beliefs, or let them go unchallenged. Merely because someone “feels” some way does not mean that they are OK.
On the flipside, someone may say that they “feel” that homosexuality causes harm to society in such a way that society should not allow it. I’d like to introduce these people to my friend Ralph, the big yellow ball in the sky…
Jason R Remy
“Open mindedness is not the same thing as empty mindedness.”
– John Dewey Democracy and Education (1916)
The homosexuals who want to march in the St. Patty’s parade are Irish. Which, IMHO, is sufficient qualification for marching in the parade. Do you resent the “in your face” mentality of Irish cops marching in the parade, taking pride in their career?
Jayron :
I agree completely with your post. Very good points on not all feelings and emotions being good. I think we’re closer to the same side than may be apparant. I’m certainly not defending the KKK, but I am defending their right to assemble. I also support the rights of homosexuals to assemble. No problem there. I don’t agree with the KKK, and I’m right with you as far as if they all disappeared tomorrow, the world would be a better place.
But… to bring this topic back to the original post, where does one draw the line? I, personally, would have a problem with the KKK marching in my town’s St. Patrick’s day parade. Alphagene, I would have a problem with that even if they were the Irish KKK. Other people have problems with other groups (ie, homosexuals). Isn’t it OK, at times, to say “let’s keep politics and crusades out of this particular event?” If gays, or KKK members, or post-menopausal hemophiliac dwarves want to march in the parade in order to promote their Irish heritage, let them do it, but leave the politics at home. I resent certain groups taking every single opportunity available to promote their particular cause, no matter how much I may agree or disagree with the cause. As I’ve said before, I also question whether it’s very effective. I highly doubt that any gay-bashers are going to change their minds when they see the gay rights marchers in the parade - rather, it would probably inflame them and make them even MORE violently opposed to gays.
then
The homosexuals who want to march in the SP parade do not seek to use the parade as way to:
- Convert homophobes.
- Spread homosexual propaganda.
- Kidnap your daughter and cover her in flannel.
- Watch “AbFab” with your son.
They are Irish. Period. The fact that homosexuals are not allowed to march, means that they are not accepted by the Irish bigshots in charge of the parade. It’s the homophobes running the show who make this whole deal political.
Wow, I’m glad I’m not gay, because according to your comments, everywhere I went I’d be making a politcal statement.
- “Hi, I’m gay”
- “Leave your political agenda at home!!!”