Gay Pride WTF?!!!

Alphagene said - "Wow, I’m glad I’m not gay, because according to your comments, everywhere I went I’d be making a politcal statement.

  • “Hi, I’m gay”
  • “Leave your political agenda at home!!!”

Why the “Hi, I’m gay” at all? Do I say “Hi, I’m an Arab-Jew”? Why do you have to bring up being gay in the first place? What difference does it make if you’re gay or not? The fact that all the cops want to march together and all the blacks want to march together and all the (fill in group here) want to march together is stupid. Homosexuals get mad at everybody else for “grouping them together as gays”, then want to group themselves together as gays. Why lower yourselves to that level? Why can’t everybody just march together? If you want to march with your friends/family/co-workers/others with the same skin color as you/others with the same sexual preference as you/others with the same SAT scores as you, do so. But why carry a sign? Why have separate groups in the first place? If we’re marching to celebrate being Irish, what the hell difference does the rest of it make. March as one with Irish pride, and leave the bullshit at home.

Oh come on… what did I say that made you think that simply being gay was making a political statement? I don’t believe that in the least!

If they’re simply Irish, and are not trying to increase awareness of homosexuality, why do they point out that they’re gay? Why not just march? If I’m a democrat, and I march in a parade under a big sign that says “Irish Democrats!” then I’m making a point. I’m NOT just Irish - I’m an Irish Democrat, and I want people to know that. Do you disagree with this?

Sheesh… at this point, I’m wondering why I got into this debate at all. If you’re going to disagree with the fact that the homosexuals who are marching in the parade are even trying to make a statement, then we need to agree to disagree. If you think I’m homophobic for feeling the way I do (and I feel like I’ve made it very clear that I’m not advocating discriminating solely against homosexuals, but all political groups in this situation), then there’s little I can do to change your mind. Is what I’m saying really so hard to understand? Is wanting a parade that’s just a parade, without political agenda of ANY kind, such a wrong thing?

Athena, I think you and I had exactly the same thoughts at exactly the same time. Pretty weird. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do.

Funny, gays march in the St. Patty’s Day parade in Ireland.

If gays are banned in SPD marches in certain towns in the U.S. (there are some U.S. towns that do let them march); then it is a BFD. Those biased and discriminating Irish in those towns are the ones making the a statement – a decidedly anti-gay statement.

Peace.

Not really (and anyone who is gay is free to back this up or refute it) but homosexuals get mad because either: 1) People get mad at them for being homosexuals and 2) People try to get them to stop being homosexuals. It’s only natural that they want to be able to openly display (not announce, but display) their homosexuality. And don’t forget, you and I get to openly display our heterosexuality every day (try to pick up girls, hold our girlfriend’s hand in public, etc. etc.). Why is it that when a homosexual displays this behavior, it’s a political statement?

The fact is, the straight majority * created * the institution and culture of homosexuality. That is not to say that we caused people to become gay (as if you could cause somone to become gay???) but we created the idea of homosexuals as a seperate group by denying them the basic dignities we allow the rest of our society. The straight majority were the ones who made the situation political and public, the homosexual community is merely responding to them.


Jason R Remy

“Open mindedness is not the same thing as empty mindedness.”
– John Dewey Democracy and Education (1916)

I know you are not a homophobe, Athena. Otherwise we’d be arguing a completely different point here. But:

The problem is that a lot of people assume that the mere presence of homosexuals means that they are going to try and turn the event into a gay pride event. Now if these Irish homosexual walk under a banner saying “Gay Irish Club”, is that “in your face”? Assuming they don’t go tossing around free condoms and yelling “We’re here, We’re Queer!” and doing all that nasty stuff that vocal gay-postive activists do, I think not. Some gay people can refrain from doing that, you know.

Let me ask you, are you worried that Irish people who march in a gay pride parade are attempting to divert attention away from gay pride into a protest of British occupation of Catholic Ireland?

Again, Athena, I don’t think you are homophobic, but aren’t you implying that gays shouldn’t be a part of any parade, except for a gay pride parade? Doesn’t that seem wrong?

Alphagene:

I’m arguing that political issues that are highly emotional do not belong in things such as St. Patrick’s Day parades. In that group, I would include gay rights, abortion rights, and anything about the death penalty. I’m sure there’s more - these are just the ones that come to mind. Interestingly enough, I’m FOR gay rights, pro-choice, and against the death penalty.

Why do I feel that way? Well, because regardless of what side you’re on, these kinds of things do tend to overshadow whatever the point of the parade is. Say the Irish Democrats march by. Most people do not get highly emotional about that, so they enjoy it and go on to the next group.

If it’s the Gay Irish, though, people react differently. People are usually on one side or another on these issues, and all of a sudden you’re thinking about how much you hate gays (or whatever). The Irish thing has become secondary.

I’m not saying gays shouldn’t be a part of the parade - if a gay person wants to march, no problem. But march without a big sign announcing you’re gay. Make the subject of the parade the main issue. You simply can’t announce that you’re gay and NOT expect people to come away with ideas about that. It’s not fair, but it is the truth. It’s not the same as declaring you’re an Irish Policeman or an Irish Band.

The bulk of the other highly emotional groups seem to understand this - you don’t often see people marching for abortion rights in St. Patrick’s Day parades. That doesn’t mean that their issue isn’t important, or that they’re not dedicated. It just seems like a waste of energy to promote your cause in something like this.

Now, if you’re asking if it’s fair or right that announcing you’re gay makes people froth at the mouth, that’s a different issue. It’s not right or fair, and I wish that everybody would just realize that one’s choice of a bedmate does not make them sub-human. But we’re not there yet, and pushing the issue in parades seems to be working towards enforcing the hatred, not decreasing it.

So any group that has an opinion, lifestyle or belief that some people violently oppose should not parade? Better get rid of all that Catholic symbolism in the St. Patty’s parade then. Tell Cardinal O’Connor to stay home. That bastard, flaunting his crucifix like that. Saying “God bless.” An affront to atheist Irishmen everywhere! Talk about “in your face”!

White supremacists would froth at the mouth at our annual Puerto Rican day parade. Better cancel that then, too.

Athena, you seem to be supporting the “heckler’s veto,” advocating that some groups can be prohibited from participating in civic events because of the way others might react. I bet there are people who get upset over the Irish Democrats. And, really, at least the Gay Irish are fairly content-neutral. Homosexuals come from as wide a range of political opinions and situations as any other group; Democrats are all Democrats.

It’s funny that you mentioned abortion rights. Last year in the televised coverage of the Cleveland parade, I saw a group marching under a banner for Pro-Life Irish. I thought, “They can march, but the homosexuals can’t? Yeesh.”

To state as you did:

really does tread close to “blaming the victim.” You can’t expect homosexuals, who may belong to groups which offer support, not to announce their membership in those groups based on the possible reactions of others. The only way to change that “truth” is to challenge it.

pldennison:

I agree… if the Pro-Life Irish can march, the Gay Irish should be able to as well.

I agree. But you can choose your fights. Pressing the issue in something like a parade makes people angry, and does nothing to open their mind to whatever cause it is. Education, one-on-one interactions… that’s how to change people’s minds. A parade is the LAST place that true learning is going to appear.

Alphagene:

Ummm… yes. They shouldn’t parade if they’re interested in changing people’s minds, or promoting their cause. It’s not an effective way to change things, IMO. The world SHOULD be a place where being gay isn’t a heated political issue, but it’s not, and making people even more pissed isn’t going to help anything.

Everybody should have the right to march under any banner they want, in what ever civic parade they can find. There should be no laws prohibiting this. These people also have a right not to be called names, not to be beaten up, and not to be killed.

The woman who is dressed in super-skimpy clothing should have the right to walk into any tough biker bar at one in the morning on a Saturday night without any fear of being pawed or raped (no one EVER deserves these things). Afterall, there are laws protecting her from rape.

And I should also have the right to walk down the toughest street in town at night with hundred dollar bills hanging out of my pockets and gold chains draped around my neck without the fear of being robbed, beaten up or killed. After all, there are laws protecting me from theft and battery.

But I don’t, because I know better. I have the right to do it, sure, but I don’t, because I know the consequenses (for right or wrong, they’re still consequenses). Sure, hang that gay-pride banner high when you march in the parade. More power to you. Express yourself! After all, it’s your right and there are (or should be) laws protecting you from harm. But don’t cry to me when some bigoted punk calls you names, beats you up or kills you. You knew better. You knew what your actions might provoke. Rights or no rights, laws or no laws, you put yourself into a bad situation, and you’ll pay the price.

It’s a nice philosophy, Nick. Too bad it’s not the reality.

-Melin
Former Board Goddess

OK, I will say it yet again. They want to march because they are Irish. They are not trying to change people’s minds. I think your assumptions about the “hidden agenda” of the Gay Irish group is blinding you.

OK, then cancel all ethnic parades. The pride people take in their heritage is bound to piss some people off somewhere. The Irish in the St. Patty’s parade aren’t forcing their Irish-ness in anyone’s face by parading. They are merely taking pride in being Irish. The Gay Irish who want to march have the same perspective towards their homosexuality.

Hell, the 1996 and 1998 Yankee ticket-tape parade probably pissed off a lot of Mets fans, as well as fans of the Indians, Braves, Padres and Red Sox. Guess that one was a bad idea, too.

Here’s my homework assignment for you, Athena. Come up with a parade that won’t piss someone off. Some people will be pissed off no matter what. Why should we bend over backwards to cater to them?

To paraphrase Athena, I don’t mind if gays march in the Irish parade just as long as they don’t proclaim their gayness.

That is 100% pure offensiveness. It sounds like you are arguing that myself and all my brethren should go “straight” back into the closet. We are here, we are queer, and we are also human with human desires and needs. We have developed a disctinctly different subculture (I am not arguing that it is the best or worst, just that it is different) from the mainstream norm. This is frankly because we are different and have the need to be ourselves without being uptight by the straight entrapments. (I am not bashing straight people) Being gay, it is very difficult to go out in public with my boyfriend and to not think that we might be beaten in public for showing our emotions towards ourselves. For that matter, it is even difficult to find a boyfriend who is willing to hold hands, kiss, flirt, etc in public. I personally think that any of this type of behaviour is my right and I exercise it at almost all times. I should also say that there are circumstances where I know I will not be able to do anything like the prestated instances because it can result in bodily harm to myself and/or my significant other. Remember Matthew Shephard? He was the boy who was brutally murdered by two other boys because he was gay. They also had their two girlfriend accomplices help them attempt to cover up their crime by hiding and washing their clothes so the FBI could not trace them as easily. The boys were given minimal sentances (not life or the death penalty) and the girls were given sentances of about 5 years. I think all gay people should proclaim that they are gay and do it as often as possible in public. In a way it helps ensure that we are not beaten, killed, or ridiculed in public because as people realize that our numbers our greater than first imagined and we are not complacent with the status quo then perhaps the next homophobe gaybasher will think twice and not attempt to kill the next Matthew Shephard.

It is obvious that visibility helps further the gay cause which is to be accepted for who we are without fear of retribution. Marching in parades helps. The St. Patrick’s Day Parade is no different. Gay people are from every ethnicity and should be allowed to march. Someone (sorry but I am not going to search through to find out who mentioned it) also mentioned that Firefighters, Policeman, or other similar public servants should march even if they were gay (paraphrased). In truth there is a whole contingent of Gay and Lesbian marchers in the New York City gay pride parade. We really are from every facet of life. Because of the inherent homophobia of our puritanical United States, we are forced to hide from “polite society”. I think not.

There are too many gay men and women who, at an early age, knew that they were gay and were forced into denial or hiding because of that simple fact. I personally have met many married men who are gay but in fact are married to women. They frequent bars or other sex haunts. (If you are married go get a blood test.) Some gay men, like some of every group of people, are just sluts and have no regard for marriage. They (the married gay men) live a double life obviously. If society was less stringent on how it treats gay men and women, they would be less likely to marry someone of the opposite sex out of convenience or to further enforce their cloeted lives than they are currently prone to. Many of these men live their entire lives unhappy because of instances like these. In my personal experiences I have found that small towns are the worst in issues regarding homophobia. It is not that they aren’t quaint. It is just that in smaller towns there is less population, thus less gay visibility. Imagine being in a town where you are from the only black family. At least when you are black you can easily discern who the other people who share your ethnicity are. When you are gay, there aren’t necessarily any discernable characteristics. Ask your husband and they may tell you different. But then again, he may be the one tricking (that is having sex) at the parks, baths, or other sex type club. Just because he is married to you does not mean he is straight. On the rare occasion is this true. I have a friend in Delaware, whom shall remain nameless because I respect him and his wife’s privacy, who is married and “out” to his wife. They stopped having sex a long time ago because he finally told his wife that he is gay. They are both very religious and find the vow to stay together more important than a divorce; however, they are both free to find other love partners, and do. They have been together for 26 years now and were married when they were both in their early twenties. I should point out that this is in the severe minority. Most married (to a woman) gay men are severely closeted and would never dream of telling their wives that they were gay. I have another friend back in San Antonio whose wife left him and their two kids because she is gay. The husband (who is also gay but was faithful to his wife the whole time) won’t tell his kids because they took it so badly when she came out. The stories go on and on.

Back to the parade. We don’t want to march to recruit new homosexuals. We are not a club. We don’t recruit members. We don’t want to march in the parade to incite people to violence, that is what the KKK does. Nor do we want to march in the parade to sicken our straight brethren. It is a way for us to peaceably (sp?) show our numbers in public in a parade that caters to ourselves because of our ethnicity (in the case of the St. Patrick’s Day Parade), our job (policeman/fireman’s parades), or whatever.

To conclude, we have a right to assemble peaceably whenever and wherever we want to. We don’t attempt to spread hateful material. We are just in public proclaiming that we are happy with ourselves for being gay and deliver the message to the younger generation that they don’t have to hide who they are and that they too can be proud of themselves. And if anyone argues that gay people are always happy then why is the suicide rate for gay teenagers triple that of any other class of people?

SqrlCub

SqrlCub, Would you be offended if a group of KKK members marched in the S.F. or N.Y. Gay Pride Parade with a huge KKK banner and Nazi armbands? They have every right to, afterall. That wouldn’t bother you in the least? You could just ignore the whole thing? Would you be surprised if a large contingent of “Dikes On Bikes”, who happen to be some very tough women, beat the shit out of them for doing that? Just curious.

No Dirty Devil, I would not be offended if the KKK marched with the gay pride parade in NYC or SF as long as they possessed peacable intentions and actions and were known not to harm the marchers or the parade, let them march. This is highly unlikely given the groups current status. It would be like a similarly peaceful group of people that want to march in the St. Patrick’s Day Parade.

Now for the more important part of this message, I resent the fact that you compare the presence of gay people to the presence of the KKK. Gay people by and large are not violent just like the majority of Americans are non-violent contrary to what television may tell you. A group that uses intimidation and violence as a means to coerce individuals to its will is in no means entitled to exist. In essence you are comparing gay people to a group of bigoted terrorists who, for some strange reason, believe that any Non-WASP person is bound to go to hell and they are God’s emissary in ensuring they end up there sooner rather than later. Remember Jasper, Texas? I know that the three men were not affiliated with the KKK per se, but there actions were similar to ones the KKK used in the past.

In Maryland in the recent months, the KKK wanted to adopt a highway litter control measure. The state, which incidently has a large concentration of black people (although not in the area where the KKK wanted to do the litter control), vetoed the measure saying that they could not have a litter control site. This was taken through the courts which said that the state could not exclude groups from state run activity even if their politics differ from those of the majority. In order to keep the state in compliance with the law, Maryland ended its Highway Litter control program. This is just bad. I believe that the KKK should have the right to pick up litter, march in parades, etc; however, if they did have the ability to adopt a highway litter control area, I know that I damn sure would have dumped all my trash in the area every time I passed it. I would not have been alone in that either. They revoke the membership of people in the litter control program if they are unable to keep their site clean. If they were able to do that after a few months, I would stop, they would have proven to me that they were serious about their intention and that they were trying to put out something positive.

I am in a group called the Radical Faeries and we have gone to KKK rallys that have been in the area. We basically went to take publicity off of the KKK and try disperse the evil energy. We dress up in strange, colorful costumes/makeup and basically let ourselves flame. It is a statement against the group, plus it shows the ridiculousness of the whole thing. I should say that overall the KKK people ignored us but the TV cameras focused on us. When they asked us what we were doing there, we said that we were just trying to de-emphasize the evil work being done.

Back to the issue of marchers in the St. Patrick’s Day Parade. The parade is inclusive of all political/social backgrounds. (Remember Irish Democrats, Irish Republicans, Irish Musicians, even Fans of Ireland etc) The only real qualifications to be in the parade are to be Irish, enjoy Irish things, or be drunk and claim to like St. Patrick. This is not a completely inclusive parade. And like Gay Pride parades, one need not be gay in order to march in the parade. For both types of parades, one just needs the desire.

Sqrlcub

If I ever have the grave misfortune of being at a KKK parade, I hope the Radical Faeries come.

Seriously! You guys sound like a breath of fresh air, and I love the idea of dispelling the hate. Do you have magic wands?

I am being totally serious. I am a straight white female, but I want to be a Radical Faerie. Can one be a Radical Faerie in spirit?

(Of course, it doesn’t have nearly the impact when a straight white girl flits about in a tu-tu as it does when a grown gay man does.)

In case anyone is reading any sarcasm into this post, rest assured, I’m serious. The Radical Faeries sound great to me because they make a strong political point with humour and creativity. I’m all for that!


Alphagene raises a good point (even now that I have found out where that icky name comes from), the SPD parade is all about diversity and different groups. If you’re going to let the policemen and all the other “groups” have a float, don’t stop gays having one. If you don’t want the gays to have one, then the policemen shouldn’t have one. If the policemen shouldn’t have one, perhaps the Irish shouldn’t set themselves apart and have a parade at all, and all of a sudden you are left with nothing. If you are going to have a parade all about groups, whether they be Irish, Puerto Rican, poodle owners or Ford drivers, then let everybody take part.

Just to muddy the waters a little more, last year there was a pretty het-up debate in Amsterdam regarding whether or not gays should have their own part in the annual Rememberance Day march which commemorates the fallen of the two world wars. The marchers are almost entirely veterans, with others lining the streets. The debate became pretty inflamed, but in the end gays were not given their own “unit”; it was deemed that the march commemorated the men and women who had made the ultimate sacrifice and laid down their lives for their countries, and it was felt that by recognising the sacrifices of gay soldiers in this special way the sacrifices of the others were made to seem less valuable.

The example isn’t strictly speaking comparable to the SPD parade as most people would agree that when you have laid down your life for your country, your sexual orientation, colour or anything else is secondary to that; however, as only veterans marched, regardless of whether they were sappers, pilots or cooks, it points to a possible solution. Since all the people marching in the SPD parade are Irish, kind of, why have these groups at all? Don’t let the gays have their float, but don’t let the policemen or the freemasons have theirs either, after all, one group isn’t more Irish than the other right? Do I get the Seeing The World Through Rose Tinted Glasses Award?


It only hurts when I laugh.

sigh…

SqrlCub, I find it offensive that you’ve seemingly decided that I’m some sort of anti-gay basher. Please read my posts. I have said absolutely nothing that says that gay people should hide their sexual preference at all costs. I’ve just said that maybe a parade isn’t the best place to do it. I also believe that a parade isn’t the place to push for abortion rights, or declare the death penalty to be inhumane.

So we’ve both offended each other. We’re even.

Alphagene, I’ve been to plenty of parades that don’t piss people off. 'round here, parades are usually filled with things like 4-H groups, antique car clubs, etc. I have yet to see anyone pissed off because the Future Farmers of America have a float going down Main St.

Another thought: Let’s say there’s a Gay Right’s Parade going on. Not a St. Patrick’s Day Parade, or Thanksgiving Parade, but totally Gay Rights. Should the Christian Coalition be allowed to have an anti-gay right’s float? IMO, no, they shouldn’t. For the same reason I think the highly emotional issues shouldn’t be allowed in the St. Patrick’s Day parade. It takes away from the basic theme of the parade.

Dirty Devil, thanks for your support. I tend to agree with you - the world would be a better place if the Irish Gay could march and it was no more of a deal than the Girl Scouts. But we’re not there yet.

So, with that, I’m signing off of this debate. I seem to be doing nothing but convincing people that because I object to one Gay Rights issue that I’m some sort of a close minded semi-homophobic idiot. You guys will never see my point, I’ll never see yours. Thanks for the debate.

Yeah! And break up that group of 4H club kids! And over there! That marching band! DISPERSE!!! How DARE you group together with your peers to show that your group supports the parade!!!


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