Does the military’s ban on out gays and lesbians extend to the ROTC? What happens if ROTC instuctors find out one of their students is gay? What about JROTC?
The military doesn’t have a ban on gays. There is a selectively enforced rule on “Don’t ask, don’t tell.” I was in ROTC for a year as well as JROTC. Junior ROTC is really just a club in high school. The kids in it are too young for any potential gay ban to be in place and the Junior ROTC units don’t have much official military standing. College ROTC never had any mention of gay activity. I am fairly certain that our female Captain was a dike of epic proportions for example. The military commissioning process starts just before the junior year of college and I am fairly certain that it is still “Don’t ask; don’t tell” for all of it.
Like Shagnasty says, JROTC isn’t much more than co-ed Boy Scouts with more PT and fewer campfires.
Shagnasty, note that he calls it a “ban on out gays and lesbians”, which is accurate. The ban doesn’t extend to ROTC classes, which any student may take from the university, but you have to realize that if you are outed (by anyone), then your instructors will not allow you to apply for the junior/senior year scholarship and probably will not permit you to participate in the corps of cadets. Any non-freshman who is on a ROTC scholarship has an active duty commitment, and is governed by the same rules that govern active duty military members: don’t ask / don’t tell, as well as the UCMJ prohibitions against underage drinking, adultery, and sodomy. I was on a four-year scholarship, but I believe that even non-scholarship students are required to be placed on some sort of stipend junior and senior years – and the acceptance of the stipend carries with it a service commitment.
I don’t recommend joining the military or doing ROTC if you’re gay. There are lots of tolerant people in the services these days, but there are also many many bigots who would just love to out you and make your life hell. I know people who have toughed it out for their service commitment, but military life can be lonely, and your co-workers and fellow service members will be your primary social circle. Having to lie to them on a daily basis is just not healthy. Also, if you’re outed and discharged while serving your initial ROTC scholarship commitment, you can be made to re-pay the balance of your debt to the government.
What the heck does this mean?
With the average age that a young person comes out as gay or lesbian now being 13, it’s true that high school isn’t very relevant – it happens in Junior High, 7th or 8th grade.
(bolding mine)
So technically active military members can’t engage in anal (and in some defintions, oral) sex? Even if it’s a dude and a chick?
Correct.
I don’t think you mean average. Perhaps, the age young people begin to become aware of their sexuality, and come out. Average implies that, since some people don’t come out until they’re 40, that means there must be plenty of people coming out when they’re 10. So, for every 40 year old that comes out, you’d have to have nine 10 year olds come out. Doesn’t sound plausable to me.
Ran out of edit time!!!
I believe Shagnasty meant that it would be pretty difficult to enforce banning gay and lesbians at the high school level. I agree, it seems like it would be non-PC to have this type of ban in place. If you’re not allowed to have sex with a member of the opposite gender (while on field trips, etc.), it’s pretty much understood that you can’t have sex with somebody of the same gender, either.
I apply for (and get) a ROTC scholorship. The US Gov pays for my books, tution, uniforms, etc. now4 years later, it is graduation time-and commissioning time. you (rather graciously) accept your diploma, them mention to your C.O> Gee, Colonel/capatain: I really don’t like women-in fact, i’m in love with my boyfriend!
C.O. scratches head-sees that military will not commission openly gay officer candidate: our you go! Diplaom in hand-Gov is out $100K!
I was under the impression that part of the contract of receiving an ROTC scholarship is that you will serve in the military for X-number of years after you graduate, or else you have to pay the money back to Uncle Sam. In fact, I believe this is exactly what Jurph said at the bottom of his post. I’m curious if anyone knows any examples of this actually happening, though I expect it might be kind of rare since I would imagine that most such scholarship recipients would be smart enough to keep their mouth shut for the initial four years (or however long it is).
Not so fast. I had an ROTC scholarship (not a full ride though.) I turned down my commission for several reasons, and not without a fight. The dumb reason was because I was getting married but the smarter reason turned out to be asthma.
But anyway, I had to pay back the scholarship. I don’t remember what kind of interest there was on it; something like student loan rates, if I recall. But for several years there, I was writing a check to the Federal Goverment every month.
What happens if the goverment turns you down, though? In your case, they might have run you through whatever physical tests they routinely do before formally commissioning you, find out you had asthma, and say “Thanks, but, um, no thanks”.
My brother was discharged after his junior year in college due to a foot problem. He had a full-ride NROTC scholarship at a very pricey school. To the best of my knowledge he was not asked to repay any of it (though my parents did wind up having to foot the bill for his final year of college). This was 30 years ago so things may have changed since then.
This is a medical discharge, and is a “sorry, Uncle Sam’s mistake” situation. It’s unusual, because you go through quite a bit of physical training to stay in ROTC. Each semester there is a Physical Fitness Test, there’s a four-week Field Training held over the summer of your sophomore year, there are several physicals, height/weight measurements after every group physical activity (mostly to catch obesity and/or anorexia), and more. To have a medical condition escape notice through all this – unless of course, it crops up senior year – is very unusual. Because you’re already in the Inactive Reserves during your senior year, you get a military medical discharge, with no penalty.
I had a ROTC classmate who suddenly began displaying symptoms of Multiple Sclerosis :eek: during her second year of active duty. She had already been commissioned, sent to at least two very expensive training stations, and was discharged debt-free, with military disability retirement to boot! She recovered, and to my knowledge, lives happily with her husband to this day.
For those who need more details, this PDF has plenty. Alphaboi, please e-mail me if you’re still considering ROTC. I’d like to get you in touch with a former service-member who served while closeted, so you can make as informed a decision as possible.
That makes sense. In my brother’s case, it was a bunion (IIRC) that I guess had been developing over a couple of years. He actually had surgery scheduled to fix it, but got called for his “cruise” (summer program; IIRC boats aren’t necessarily involved but that was the term he used) earlier than usual, for some “special” activity that was quite an honor - so he postponed the surgery. If that hadn’t happened, he’d have had the surgery, gone onto his “regular” cruise, and not been discharged after all.
Yes, that’s the impression I have too. Had I been diagnosed with the asthma then, it wouldn’t have been a problem. Too bad I was diagnosed in retrospect several years later, and by civilian doctors. Well, no wonder I always stunk at the running! I barely squeaked by the PT tests every time. Height and weight measurements only came with the (quarterly, in my school’s case) PT tests, not with every physical activity though.
As anecdotal evidence for the OP, I did know lesbians in ROTC. They did not tell.
Cites:
“a new four-year study of LGBT youths shows that the average age a teenager comes out is now 13” - http://uk.gay.com/article/5013 or Transgender News, Politics, Commentary & Community | Advocate.com More details: “Her study found that the average age of teens coming out was just over age 13, a slight decrease from the late 1980s and early 1990s, when teens came out between ages 14 and 16. During the 1970s, most gay teens waited until they became adults to come out.”
“average age for realizing they were gay was 12.5 years.” - Journal of Adolescence, The Effects of Traditional Family Values on the Coming Out Process of Gay Male Adolescents., Newman, Bernie Sue; Muzzonigro, Peter Gerard
"Kids are disclosing their homosexuality with unprecedented regularity–and they are doing so much younger.’ - The New Gay Teenager, Harvard University Press, http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/SAVNEW.html (Though this book gives a slightly higher age, saying "The average gay person now comes out just before or after graduating high school’. It’s unclear just what years the research for this book was done.)
“the age of identifying as LGB may range from 15 to 17 years on average.” - Sexual identity trajectories among sexual-minority youths, http://www.glsen.org/cgi-bin/iowa/all/news/record/1970.html (But this was published in 2000, so the research must be at least 7-8 years old.)
Also, these studies are about “gay youth coming out”, and include only youth (up to about age 21 or so). Thus the ‘average’ they give is for “youth”, and so would not include a 40-year-old person just coming out in their calculations of ‘average age’.
(Frankly, there seem to be very few gay people coming out at age 40 any more – they mostly did that in their 20’s, during the 1980’s. Other than youth, the only group that is still coming out any any numbers any more is the elderly – gay people in their 60’s, 70’s or 80’s, who grew up during the conformist 1950’s and didn’t dare come out. Now, at or past retirement age, society has changed enough that they are now coming out. A growing trend is all-gay or gay-friendly retirement villages and nursing homes!)
Generally, they still demand the money back.
This is covered by a policy called “recoupment”. In the 1980’s and early 1990’s, the military demanded repayment of all scholarship money if they did not complete their required years of service, even if it was the military who would not let them complete their years of service. See, for example, the John Hensala case of 1986, where the military wanted $70,000 repaid. (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1589/is_2001_March_13/ai_71763679)
But then ex-servicemembers began going to court about this, and courts began ruling in their favor. So in 1994 Deputy Secretary of Defense John Deutch issued the “Deutch memo”. Basically, it says that if their reason for coming out is to try to get out of the service, or to avoid an obligation to serve in a combat zone, they may be ordered to repay recoupment. Otherwise, they may not have to repay.
But this is often ignored by local commanders, who seek recoupment despite this memo. Also, there’s a big loophole: it only applies to coming out statements. If during questioning the servicemember admits to any sexual act or to filing for a civil union, this memo does not apply. Then they will be discharged not for being gay, but for violating regulations by committing prohibited sex acts, or for ‘bringing the service into disrepute’ (by filing for a civil union or gay marriage). Since those charges aren’t covered by the Deutch memo, local commanders use them to seek recoupment for such discharges.
More info: http://www.sldn.org/templates/get/record.html?section=19&record=70
During the Bush era, the military has began using another tactic here.
The papers people use to sign-up contain a statement that they swear they are not gay. If they later come out or are outed, the military discharges them not for being gay, but for false statements on those documents. This way, the Duetsch memo doesn’t apply, and they can seek recoupment payments. (It also keeps down the count of people discharged for being gay. Some members of Congress & the General Accounting Office are raising questions about the cost of this.)