I am a single guy, I may have children someday, but at the moment a potential mother for my hypothetical children is not even on the horizon (mores the pity). So I had to use a little imagination, in thinking about the subject of gays in the Boy Scouts, to work out how I would feel, personally, if I were the father of a Boy Scout, or a boy that wanted to join them. So I used my imagination, and the conclusion I came to, tentatively, was this: I would be uncomfortable with a gay male scout master accompanying my (hypothetical) 12 year old son on an overnight camping trip for the same reason I would be uncomfortable with a straight male scout master accompanying my (hypothetical) 12 year old daughter on an overnight camping trip.
I know a lot of people here feel very passionately about this subject, and what I would like to hear from them is whether or not they think my tentative conclusion makes me homophobic, and if so, why? Do they think that the two examples I gave here collectively represent an intolerable kind of discrimination? Or, do they think it is wrong to lump them together in the first place, and if so, why? Or is my conclusion wrong for some reason that just hadn’t occurred to me?
A few notes: First, I am aware that the BSA discriminates against homosexuals in more ways than just hiring scoutmasters that go on overnight camping trips, but for this thread I would like to focus on this one narrow issue, please. Also, if you’re someone who actually feels that it is wrong for me to be uncomfortable with a straight male scout master accompanying my (hypothetical) 12 year old daughter on an overnight camping trip, well…we can discuss that in another thread. For this one I want to take it as a given. Please.
Back when I was in the Scouts (lo these many years ago), I literally never went on a trip with just our scoutmaster - there was always at least one other person, generally a parent who was involved with the troop. In a few cases, where the Scouts got preferential access to camping in a particular area, we had a lot of parents along with us. I suspect the BSA has long realized the wisdom of having more than one adult along in this sort of situation.
Of course, a) I have no plans to have children, and b) I am bisexual, agnostic, and unable to support the Scouts as they now exist, due to their emphasis on discriminatory policies. So take the above as you will.
Can’t really say about the boy scouts, the child came out a girl. I doubt this will ever be an issue, but a lesbian scoutmaster would be the least of my worries. Then again, woman aren’t men, which is why there aren’t going to be any male baysitters. Oh, I know there are the odd cases of molestation(and that’s what we’re talking about here, am I right?) commited by women, but they aren’t exactly overcrowding the system. To answer the OP question, I don’t think concern over your child’s well-being necessarily makes you a homophobe, as a parent that’s kind of your purpose.
Some Guy has it right- the BSA has two rules. One requires that a leader never be alone with a child other than the leader’s own child, and the other requires a minimum of two adults on every trip.
As far as whether the OP’s position makes him homophobic- I don’t know. Not enough information, and he doesn’t have kids yet. I mean, I can say I wouldn’t let my daughter go camping with a male Scout leader- but do I mean I wouldn’t let my daughter go camping where the only adult was a male scout leader whom I don’t know well, or that I wouldn’t let my daughter go on a trip led by a husband and wife pair of scout leaders or that I wouldn’t let my daughter go on a trip led by a male scout leader and myself or some other situation in between these? I wouldn’t let my either my son or my daughter go on a trip led by just one adult , whether the adult was male or female, straight or gay, whether I trusted the leader or not . I wouldn’t let them go on a trip led by multiple adults, straight or gay, whom I don’t know well enough to trust. Would I refuse to allow them to go on a trip led by multiple adults, whom I know well enough to trust , simply because one of them happens to be gay? Of course not.
Now, if the OP would be uncomfortable sending his 12 year old son on a camping trip where one of the leaders was a gay male that the OP has known and trusted for years, while having no problem with sending the child on a trip led by a group of presumably straight males who the OP met last month at the registration, that would definitely be homophobic.
Someone will be along shortly to expound on this, but I’ll say that the OP seems to equate homosexuality with sexual molestation on male children. IIRC, most studies have shown that most child molestors are actually straight males and the sex of the subject has little relationship to the molestors need.
WAE:I would be uncomfortable with a gay male scout master accompanying my (hypothetical) 12 year old son on an overnight camping trip for the same reason I would be uncomfortable with a straight male scout master accompanying my (hypothetical) 12 year old daughter on an overnight camping trip.
Well, I don’t know whether or not you’re homophobic, but at least you seem to be avoiding the “homosexual = pedophile” fallacy so beloved of many homophobes, since you are equally ready to suspect a straight man of wanting to molest your young daughter.
I do think it’s a little odd that you’d be uncomfortable sending your adolescent child out with a group of other kids on a camping trip supervised by any adult sexually oriented towards your child’s gender, though. (Whew, it wasn’t easy to phrase that in a gender-neutral and sexual-orientation-neutral way! )
You say you want to take that issue as a given without discussing it, but it seems to me that it’s at the root of your debate here. In other words: is it realistic to be seriously concerned about sexual predation on the part of an adult supervising a group of adolescents on an overnight trip? Even when, as SG and doreen point out, it’s mandatory to have at least two adults on such a trip?
I would think (me: single, childless) that that sounds kind of paranoid, especially in an organization where the parents have lots of opportunities to get to know and trust the adult supervisors. However, if you really would be equally paranoid in the case of a supervisor of any orientation, then I can’t say I see anything homophobic in it.
Whether it’s fair or smart to bar all people of the “wrong” orientation from being trip leaders is another issue. Being somewhat of a hiker and backpacker myself, I think that there are a lot more urgent things to worry about on camping trips than the remote possibility of sexual predation. I know I’d rather send my (hypothetical) 12-year-old son on a camping trip led by a competent gay man than on a trip led by a straight man who was too clueless to notice that my son had got separated from the group three hours ago.
Couldn’t agree more. I once was asked to help on a Scout trip into our local mountains. These are exceedingly rugged, desert, volcanic mountains with very few water sources within forty miles.
There were about 30 Scouts, two scout leaders and me. When we arrived the kids all piled out of cars, the scout leaders started walking ahead of the group talking to each other and never looking back. Having seen how the Army conducts hikes, with a “rear guard” and vehicles to help stragglers and possible injured en-route, I made sure that I stayed behind all of the boys to make sure no one was left behind.
I decided then an there that my son was never going on a trip with those two “leaders.” Homosexuality seems like a trivial matter compared to their incompetence.
Statistically, your kid is more likely to be molested by a married, ostensibly heterosexual, man than by an openly homosexual one. Boy Scouts do everything in groups anyway. Kids are never left alone with scout masters or other adults. Adults do not share tents with kids (unless it’s their own kids). the opportunity for molestation is pretty well controlled for and the kind of guy who would molest a twelve-year old boy is far more likely to try to appear “normal,” (to be married, to present a hetero image, etc.) than to be openly gay.
You are correct, scoutmasters are volunteers (who should have gone through a fair amount of training, including the Youth Protection program which teaches the various policies of the BSA intended to protect boys such as at least two adult leaders on every outing). The BSA also has an extensive staff of “professional scouters” such as District Executives, who are full-time salaried employees of the BSA. The same no-homosexual policies apply to these employees, and there are also plenty of female professional scouters.
As to the OP, I don’t think wanting to protect your child is homophobic, but as has already been posted, I think your fears are unfounded. Cases of molestation are still occurring in the BSA despite the ban on homosexual leaders, and in pretty much every case the perpetrator is ostensibly a heterosexual with a wife and children (I’d have to dig up the cites, if anyone is interested, but I’m really just going by my own memory of such instances in the past decade).
For the record, I’m an adult leader in the BSA who disagrees with the position of the national office.
I would like to emphasize a clear point, which is that the only time a homosexual scoutmaster would be sexually interested in a male person is when they are rather further along post-pubescent wise than just 12 like no straight man is gonna get turned on very much by young girls without the secondary sexual characteristics in evidence. Its just not very arousing, really, ignoring the social taboos also at work. Pedophiles are a whole different kettle of fish from both orientations we know, and indeed it seems like their own sexual predilications are just as fixated as your average person (hence repeat offenses often occuring). So we’ll assume these are rather older teenage boys for the scenario presented in the OP.
In such a case, an openly gay scoutmaster would be significantly less risky than a closeted desperate gay man stuck living in a straight life with no acceptable vents. Consider your analogy flipped around: what type of straight male would be most likely to pose a risk for molestation among teenage females? The one with a stable relationship and healthy restraint mechanisms for his sexuality, or one who has been bottled up for years with no way to release that tension? The answer should be relatively obvious, of course. In the same way, a gay man who has accepted his orientation, developed romantic relationships within his peer group, and learned how to put off his simple lust mechanisms (as we all usually do) is inclined against molesting those in his care. I mean, lets face it here: most teenage boys can be annoyingly immature (speaking as one) and given the option of a romantic relationship with someone in that age group (say, between 14 and 17ish) or outside it, very few well-adjusted openly gay men would run towards that direction.
I don’t think you’re homophobic because you say you would have exactly the same feeling with the genders changed. (I’ll leave aside interesting questions like ‘what about straight/bi women and boys/girls’ and ‘Are we talking just a straight male scout master with your daughter or as part of a group including women’ and ‘if both, does that mean children should be segregated’ and so forth for another thread.)
I don’t think you’re a homophobe, Weird_Al, but I think you’re falling prey to the common assumption that gay men are more likely to be child molestors. Your average gay guy doesn’t want to have sex with a 12-year-old boy any more than I (straight male) would want a 12-year-old girl. Pedophilia is not more common among gay men than it is among straight men.
I was a Boy Scout for 5 years, and I can’t think of a trip that I went on where we weren’t accompanied by a (presumably heterosexual) female Assistant Scout Master or parent. That didn’t seem to worry anyone. And while yes, there was a rule against leaders and scouts being alone with each other, I don’t remember that rule being all that strictly enforced.
I don’t understand why some posters are attributing a “homosexual = child molester” belief to the OP. He specifically gives an example of a parallel heterosexual situation that he would also object to. If anything he’s arguing “male = child molester” (although I don’t think he believes that either).
I think the reason people are attributing “homosexual = child molester” to the OP is that he does not seem to be concerned that a heterosexual male could also be a child molester, as several of the posters have commented. If the concern is child molestation, than why does the OP not seem to be worried by a heterosexual Scout leader? As I read the OP, he seems to assume that the problem of child molestation by male Scout leaders is tied to sexual orientation: gay ones would be more likely to molest boy scouts, straight ones would be more likely to molest girl guides. As other posters have commented, that’s not how pædophilia works.
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