I haven’t read most of this thread, but I’d like to make the one little point that the pullout in Gaza is a small FRACTION of the overall peace process. They threw the Palestinian’s a bone, and now people expect the Palestinians to bite, otherwise they can easily villify them again. It’s a lot worse in the West Bank where they have no intention of pulling out.
This situation is fucked, i’ve met so many people who think that the Palestinians are just warmongers who hate Israel for no real reason. They think Hamas has education camps where they ingrain propaganda into the children. Somehow they can’t understand that maybe children learn to hate Israelis because Israelis regularly shoot them with rubber bullets, most of the time it goes unreported.
I am glad that the Israelis are doing what they are doing, but it’s not nearly enough. This reminds me of the English telling Sinn Fein that they won’t talk to them AT ALL, until the IRA gives up all it’s bargaining chips (weapons) so the English government won’t have to make ANY concessions whatsoever when they finally get to the negotiating table because the IRA’s leverage has been removed.
I’m very skeptical, I think Israel is not doing nearly enough, and to expect Palestinians who still live in the west bank where one cannot move from town to town sometimes because their refugee camps are built into isolation by Israeli Settlements, to stop being angry, and to stop wanting more land, is really ludicrous.
“A bunch of people”. Hmmmm. It seems to me that it’s just jay jay and yourself who have that reaction, and jay jay has been honest enough to admit that “I don’t deny that there is a strong pro-Palestinian slant here”. The elements of my post #3 were sarcastic and laced with hyperbole, and they were made somewhat tounge in cheek. I wonder why you seem to have such a hard time grasping that simple fact. Maybe it’s because you think of me as an “asshole” (not my politics, my posting style-your words), and are having a hard time getting beyond that to deal with the actual issues. Who knows? In any event, it weakens your case. Would you care to address the issue at hand rather than your antipathy for me? I’d be interested to hear that. You’ve proven yourself to be quite smart and knowledgable when you aren’t trying to score points off of me. I’d like to hear what you think.
I think the terrorist groups like Hamas actually DO have camps where they teach kids how to become terrorists. I think they teach it in the schools too. I’m not sure about it, but I remember reading or hearing that they did.
and me. and, had you said “pro Palestinian stance” I wouldn’t have had a problem. However, you did not say that. you exaggerated both in numbers and in stance to a point of absurdity and insult and have yet to retract, substantiate or modify your actual words.
Neighboring states have refused to take them in- they want to see atrocities happen to the Palestinians to fuel their own political agendas. The Israel conflict has been fuel Islamic fundamentalism for years.
Whatever. I think America has repeatedly shown that Blacks arn’t welcome, but nobody in their right minds suggest American Blacks set up some country in Africa. In fact, they tried to do that and it was a big fucking failure.
especially since, when I first responded to that particular quote, his response was not “I was being sarcastic”, but to link to a thread in defense of the position, and to point at a single poster in this thread as well. Odd, isn’t it, that when he’s first called to task on the quote, he doesn’t mention that he was engaging in
Please. You were a dick first, as is your wont, and several people in this thread called you on it already.
Not much, given my lack of television programming. I’ll stick with the Economist, Financial Times, WaPo, BBC, Times. But, hey, thanks for asking.
Ah, I’m sorry. I should have used your exact phrasing: fanatical, racist, xenophobic proponents of genocide. Much different from my paraphrase as bloodthirsty savages, I can see how you’d be annoyed :rolleyes:
Oh, I’m sorry. I missed that in your initial post. What? It wasn’t there? Oh. Your phrase was a pathetic throwaway line to CYA after the fact.
Very true. But then you have to make an assessment of whether their terms are reasonable. Intentionally expanding settlements during a period where they agreed to freeze all settlements in order to expand the territory they will get to keepin the final peace agreements isn’t the actions of someone making a good faith effort towards peace.
Don’t be dense. It’s not exactly completely giving in to the Palestinians to hold off on building new settlements and pissing them off further in the West Bank. It’s giving with one hand and taking with the other. It’s not the action of a state that “earnestly desires peace.”
Now agreeing to right of return, giving back East Jerusalem, or simply casting themselves into the sea would be giving in completely. I do not advocate any of those.
Yes. I have little problem with the confiscation itself. But then stating that they need to control the radical elements within their society before they will negotiate with them is a bit much. Especially since the radical elements have more weapons and equipment.
And many Palestinians would like to be able to tend their olive groves without being picked off by settler snipers, who then confiscate the fields for being unused. Cute little trick.
Again, how is the PA supposed to stop terrorism without weapons. Go up to Hamas and say, “Hey, uh, guys…we’d really appreciate it if you’d stop.” That’ll work. Why didn’t Bush think of that when dealing with al-Qaeda? :rolleyes:
You mean like when the PA amended it’s charter cancelling all provisions calling for the destruction of Israel in 1998? Oh.
Ah. Doing something about it. Then we get back to the whole equipment thing.
Of course, even without large amounts of weapons, the PA has been clamping down, earning praise from Israel.
first off, the “english” haven’t told anyone anything.
the amount of errors in your viewing of the Northern Irish peace process really deserves a thread of it’s own, as i really don;'t wnat to hijack this thread.
wierddave, i make no qualms about being pro-Palestinian. I’m not Anti-israeli, either, before anyone starts calling me an anti-Semite.
there are alot of issues that have to be resolved, and a hell of a lot of unsavoury acts from both sides.
BTW, you do realise that Israel has killed more innocent civillians than Hamas or any of the other groups have, right?
Really? Just me and jay jay. Let’s have a look, shall we?
Here are some posts that were made in response to your first contribution ito this thread:
When you said:
wring responded that this was a
Other responses to your first post include:
and
and
And then, after you made yor claim that it was only me and jayjay, Neurotik said:
So, pray tell, is it really jusy jayjay and me? Or is that another piece of crap you pulled from your ass?
Well, if you’d bother to pay attention, i have offered no opinion either way on the issue of the Israeilis and the Palestinians. The main reason that i entered the thread at all was to call you out for being an asshole with your unsubstantiated generalizations.
If someone asked me to comment on this Board’s general leanings regarding the Israel/Palestinian issue, i would probably agree with jayjay that there is a “pro-Palestinian slant.” But this is not the same as what you said, which was:
If you can’t see the difference between these two things, maybe you really are as dumb as you’re acting.
You have it wrong. It’s not just your posting style that makes you an asshole (although that helps), it’s the way you deal with the “actual issues.” Your preemptive invective has become so common that it gets pretty fucking tiresome. Whether you’re talking about “liberals,” or supporters of Palestinians, or whoever else you happen to have a bug up your ass about, you can’t resist wading into threads with idiotic generalizations and insults. Of course, given that this is the Pit, you have every right to do so. But don’t expect it to go unchallenged.
You know, i wouldn’t really care to address the issue at hand. I started reading this thread just out of curiosity, to see what people were going to say. I had no real intention of entering the debate over Israel and Palestine, because i’ve found too often in the past that this is one of those topics where people have rather entrenched views, and very few minds are changed.
And i don’t need your acknowledgement of my intelligence and erudition. I’m well aware of them. Nor did i enter this thread to score points off you; i entered this thread to call you out for scoring points of others with your wild and stupid generalizations.
Your choice of language is interesting.
Why is it that you describe defenders of Israel as “people arguing in favor of Israel,” and yet you describe defenders of the Palestinians as having a “bias”? Is it only the people you disagree with who are biased?
Your post is also simplistic, in that it assumes that someone arguing for the Palestinians must therefore not be “in favor of Israel.” This simply is not the case.
While i feel extremely sorry for the Palestinians, and believe that Israel has much to be ashamed of in the way it has treated them, i am also “in favor of Israel” in the sense that i believe it should be allowed to exist peacefully and without fear of constant violence. I feel great empathy for Israeli citizens who go about their daily business in fear of suicide bombers or other attacks from within or without. But many of those same Israeli citizens also believe that the best way to remove such threats is for Israel’s policy in the occupied territories to change.
Despite the attempts of some Americans to portray Israel as monolithic, the fact is that there are many Israeli citizens who also believe that the Israeli policies towards the Palestinians are a significant, even the major cause of the troubles in the region. If you read the websites of Israeli newspapers, you’ll probably see a far greater diversity of opinion on the Palestinian situation than you see in US newspapers. And many of those Israelis who oppose Israel’s policy are also strongly “in favor of Israel” as a state and a place to live. There is no necessary contradiction between supporting the Palestinians against Israeli oppression on the one hand, and supporting the right of Israel to exist in peace and without fear of terrorism, on the other. With the right policies, it may even be that we can eventully get both those things.
Absolutely not. I am extremely biased towards Israel. It cuts both ways.
I never said it was. You can sympathise with someone while not agreeing with them. Hoever, Israel is teh su><><0r!!!one!!111, or more to the point Derleth’s posts in this thread, is pretty indicative of someone not in favor of Israel to the point where they advocate its dissolution.
While I feel a certain sympathy towards the Palestinians it is mitigated by the memories of bus bombings, Semtex jackets, and the Palestinian leadership rejecting very favorable terms because it would result in the continued existence of Israel. While I am glad to see Israel taking steps to resolve this issue, I also know that they have been attacked by all sides throughout their 57-year history, and the land that they won from their attackers is theirs. They are surrendering their land to people sworn to kill them. At this point if the Palestinians so much as sneeze funny I think Israel should rip their heads off. You don’t give a gun to your sworn enemy, and that’s what Israel is doing right now. It requires a lot of strength and a lot of trust, and if that trust is betrayed it’s time for a serious beatdown.
It’s quite possible to support neither, you know. The way I see it, the driving forces behind this conflict are Zionists (with all the religio-fascist nonsense that comes with them) on one side, and radical Islamist anti-semites on the other. In between you’ve got your usual land-grabbing squatters and people who’d gladly shepherd a bomb-wearing jihadi up through the line (if for no other reason than omerta). Mothers on one side use their babies as shields to “shame” their evictors; mothers on the other revel in their pain with grim satisfaction. I’m quite happy to let them sort it out on their own, with neither our interference, nor our tax dollars.
Amen. I swear that it seems like there is NOBODY in a position of power on either side who is willing to look at the situation like an adult. Instead, we have petulant brats who are unwilling to make the slightest compromise. It’s bad enough that innocents there end up dying because of these assholes but it’s been used as a lightning rod issue for assholes around the world and people around the world are dying because of it. I’m sick of all of them, be they Palestinian or Israeli.