Gender divide? Feminist Overkill? (I'm not sure what to title this thread)

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

I wrote some big, long post then deleted it after realizing it was thrice as long as it needed be. So here’s the skinny:

Tonight there were some guys at the bar; they were allegedly important, I think basketball players or some such. I don’t really remember any of the particulars, and don’t really care. At some point politics came up, and all the hyper-partisans I know smiled and nodded in agreement, and almost blew one of the guys who professed to be the exact political opposite of them. I don’t bullshit, or blow people because they’re rumored to be important. I called the guy on his opinions which led to a spirited debate. It was an engaging conversation, even though I became periodically annoyed when he offered useless platitudes such as “What I like about this country is we all are entitled to our opinions.” No shit. I am not debating your right to disagree with me; I am pointing out that I believe you are wrong. But other than the grating catch phrases and talking points he insisted on throwing out, it was a good, honest debate.

After maybe 45 minutes, before leaving to go do important guy stuff, one of the men said to me, and this is as close to an exact quote as memory will supply me, “Politics aside, you have a lovely body.”

This made me angry.

The other guy said, and these are his exact words, “Sweeter than a milkshake.”

This made me *damn *angry. It fucking pissed me off that this is the way they would end a debate. It were as though they patted me on the head and said in that stupid voice you use to talk to babies and puppies, “Very good.” I don’t think I displayed anger, but I couldn’t help but to let out surprise. Just… what the hell?!

After they left, I voiced my anger to my (male) friend who said something to me like, “You always see things negatively.” When explaining what happened to the (female) bartender, she said she would have taken offense.

I don’t like that I was accused of not being able to take a compliment because I was bothered by this. I don’t like that this was considered to be a compliment. I don’t like that the conversation about the “compliment” rapidly degenerated into a discussion about my looks. I don’t care about my looks, and I don’t like that a conversation that has nothing to do with looks at all turns into one.

I also don’t like that based upon my highly scientifically sound sample size (three people) there seems to be a gender divide on how these things are perceived. I’m not sure what the point of this post is, but I’m done posting it now. Yes, my original posting was longer than this.

2

That wasn’t a compliment, they condescended you by minimizing what you had to say by reversing the attention to your body. And also probably because they have narrow, little minds that can’t respect anything other than their own reflection in a mirror or whatever makes their dick twitch.

Troglodytes.

3

Want external confirmation that their behavior was not entirely complimentary? Confirmed. I gather you’re the sort of person who wants to make an impression with their intellect/personality/ability to outdrink Marion in Raiders etc, rather than your fuckability. (On most occasions :wink: ). They minimized your opinion, but it may have been the only way in their own frame of reference to say that they respected you. Which, hey great, but they might want to work on expanding that frame of reference. (I’m just glad to hear of people spiritedly debating politics in bars without bloodshed). They probably did think you were hawt, though. Hawt and smart.

4

“Is that why half the time you were unable to come up with coherent arguments, you were too busy thinking with your lower brain?”

As lousy excuses go, that one’s close to being the winner.

5

Just be grateful he didn’t say, “If I said you had a lovely body, would you hold it against me?” :smiley:

Yeah, that was turning you from a smart, challenging equal human being into an object. It sounds like a compliment on the surface (they liked your body, right? Why would you mind that?), but it wasn’t. Condescending, minimizing, and objectifying are not a compliment.

6

I would want to punch them.

Yeah, they were ‘putting you in your place’ because they couldn’t take the fact that you were at least as intelligent as they were. It was threatening or something. Idiotic.

7

I think it was funny. Sorry. But I don’t think it was meant in a mean-spirited manner. Maybe they just wanted to break the tension with a joke. Not a great joke, but still…I would have laughed.

And no, I am not going to turn in my girl-card. I truly think it was funny.

But then, I also never, ever argue politics.

8

No, I agree. They might as well have said “we weren’t listening to a single thing you said, because the only thing that’s important is that we want to fuck you.” I’d have been pissed too.

9

jesus, the circling-the-wagon hags are out in full force tonight, it seems.

it’s a bar. get this? re read it.

it’s. a. bar.

people don’t go bars to host an impromptu session of High School Debate Club: Dramshop Edition. They go to meet people and attempt to hook up. Your junior debate club partner was finished with your discussion, and moved on to the “attempting to hook up with you” phase. (yes, he failed at that part)

get over yourself.

10

I should change this, but i’m past the window

it’s not about “getting over yourself”; that may be misinterpreted. rather, get over your feminism because it was overkill this time.

11

Most people go to bars to hook up,Rumor? Could you survey that hypothesis at the local sports tavern, population approx. 70% sausage/80% during playoffs? I think what you call a ‘bar’ is what others call a ‘club’-loud, overpriced and designed for dancing and trolling for tail. There are other places, in my country we call them ‘bars’ and ‘pubs’, where people go to eat, drink, drink, yap about political crap or whatever,drink, watch sports and drink. Unless all the mill workers are blowing each other at the urinals. They haven’t mentioned it.

12

she’s talking to alleged bigwigs whom she had not met before.

pop quiz, hot shot: is MeanOldLady at an establishment more like:

a) a sleepy watering hole where patrons come to imbibe in the company of other regulars
b) a “bar” that serves as a social hot spot, where there is an expectation of generalized debauchery.

what do you think he’s there for? or at least entertaining the possibility of?

13

Um, yeah. I’m a guy, and my first impression just based on what was said is that those guys were total doucheballs. It’s possible they were just a little drunk and didn’t mean it that way, but it’s also understandable to be angry in your position. Coming at the end of a debate like that, I’d have a hard time not interpreting those comments as patronizing. I guess it would depend a lot on how it was said.

14

Doesn’t sound like MOL gave a shit what bigwiggie’s there for. If they/he were looking for a booty bar,he should have gone to one or have been clearer with the concierge about his goals for the evening. So to answer-
A);Based on it being quiet enough to have a discussion:

“so what do you think about the health care policy being debated…”
“WHAT?”
“SO WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE…”

15

And yet, according to the OP’s own story, the folks in this scenario were, in fact, discussing politics. Imagine that!

The issue here is not that political discussion and “hooking up” are necessarily mutually exclusive activities. There’s no problem with having a political discussion with someone, and also wanting to hook up with them, and there are plenty of bars where some people go for intelligent conversation and to hook up. Not sure if this will surprise you or not, but some people actually find intelligent conversation attractive.

The problem, in this particular case, is the ham-fisted and chauvinist way in which the guy in the OP made his play. It was, as others have noted, little more than a condescending pat on the head.

16

Of course all of this, other than the bland facts of what happened and what was said, is simply story. Stuff made up in people’s heads to explain what happened.

So the OP starts with “allegedly important” guys who although they can carry on “an engaging conversation” annoy her by allowing “useless platitudes” to enter the discussion.

When they leave to “do important guy stuff” they commit their final verbal error and the OP divines the reason that the words were said. She knows the purpose behind them and not surprisingly she sees them in a very black light.

EXT. OUTSIDE A BAR — NIGHT

A couple arm in arm walk past the door, pausing briefly to kiss. Two men step out of the bar. The taller one, Matt, is shiny faced in the neon light. A gold chain around his neck, his fingers are adorned with rings. His companion, Ko, a heavy set man shivers and thrusts his hands in the pockets of his camel’s hair overcoat.

MATT

What the hell was that?

KO

(embarrassed) Huh?

MATT

(mimics K) Politics aside, you have a lovely body.

KO

I hadda say something. She is so hot.

MATT

But that. I mean…

KO

Well what about you? Sweeter than a milkshake.

MATT

A good wing man is always ready. A good line…not so much. So let’s go back. Surely you’ve got better stuff.

KO

Did you see the look on her face? This isn’t Hollywood man. I don’t think I’m getting into Meg Ryan’s pants. C’mon let’s go.

Ko turns and looks at the door, shakes his head and follows Matt across the street and into the pool of darkness.

17

I thought that died out 25 years ago. What creeps. Rumor_Watkins, that’s the kind of thing you say to your buddies about the woman, not to the actual woman. If he wants to tell her that he finds her attractive, which is really not a good idea in the first place, there are ways to say that without making her feel like a pinup. I don’t know how to expain why this is rude and condescending, since on the face of it it sounds like a compliment. I don’t know why some guys still can’t understand this. I can’t even imagine any man I know and like saying that to a woman. I think Maiira summed it up the best with “They might as well have said ‘we weren’t listening to a single thing you said, because the only thing that’s important is that we want to fuck you.’” MeanOldLady, I hope you didn’t waste any good arguments on them because they were obviously too full of themselves to pay attention.

18

I don’t think it was meant in a mean way either, but I still took offense. It was similar to one of the “compliments” I frequently receive, “You’re not like other girls; you’re rational,” or a good driver, or good at math, or whatever the ass-backwards compliment it. Yes, I know you didn’t mean that as an insult, but I’m a bit miffed by your perception of womenfolk.

I laughed, but I can’t remember exactly what I said. I think it was something like, “Um, okay.”

So?

Except for all those people who do.

When’s the last time you’ve been to a bar, again?

The answer is a). It’s a fairly low-key bar that draws in a mix of regulars, and the downtown after-work crowd. It’s casual, low music, certainly not the “local hot spot,” or anything regarded as a hook up bar. The friends I was with were all regulars. I was wearing a grey tee shirt and jeans. This wasn’t White Lotus (or whatever the newest, hippest club in LA is now… haven’t lived there in years).

See, that’s what burns my toast about it. Had two random guys come up to me and said something like that, I don’t even think I would have remembered two minutes later. That fact that we had that big, long discussion, and it was concluded with, “In summation, nice tits” bothered me.

19

There now, Rumor sweetheart, don’t go and get all worked up over this. Although you really are cute when you get all angry like that.

20

I agree with Rumor. I can’t see why the final remark is dismissive of all earlier conversation.

Unless you want it to be.