This is a great point. I don’t claim to have any answers, but I see the problem, or maybe just part of it. The obvious question is why still post here? Partly out of habit, like mentioned above by @MrDibble, but also because this place can be awesome at times.
We’ve got different ideas about what’s not “that bad”.
Assuming that such things are “harmless fun” and can be done with no meanness involved is a large chunk of the problem.
I wouldn’t have come on the board in order to announce why I wasn’t joining the board. I don’t expect that everyone who did join the board, but then quit later on, announced their reasons for leaving.
Because I’m not seeing the extreme extent of such crap that some people are describing (I didn’t join these boards until 2019); and because when I do see such crap I see pushback.
Most of the threads I read don’t have anything overt, and when it does show up it very often gets modded.
A notification about this thread popped up in the corner of my screen. Apparently if someone links to a thread you were in once upon a time, you get a notification.
Anyhow, that’s just to explain why I dropped into this thread seemingly out of nowhere, when I’ve rarely posted outside the Death Pool and Wordle threads this year.
But to get to the topic, I don’t remember either any large number of female posters posting that they were quitting due to the misogyny here.
What I do remember, and what certainly amounts to the same thing, is a goodly number of women posters who complained repeatedly about the misogyny here, then eventually you’d stop seeing any posts from them anymore.
If this were 2019 when I was actively involved in this board, rather than 2022 when I’ve been barely on its fringes for over two years, I could have reeled off a bunch of names. But most of them were women whose perspective I valued, whose posts I always read, and whose absence I really regretted.
But since we’re talking demographics, it’s possible for fora to be skewed old without being skewed male, and having decent representation of people from a variety of racial and ethnic backgrounds.
The place I’ve been hanging out at for the most part nowadays is a blog called Balloon Juice, and it’s full of sixtysomethings and a fair number of people 70+, but we’re not all geezers there, still plenty of commenters under 60. Lots of women in comments (it helps that at least four of the currently active front-pagers are women), a decent number of African-American commenters and other POC from different parts of the world. And in general, it’s a lively place, despite blogs also being a medium that’s generally considered to be well past its prime. (I’m lowtechcyclist there, if anyone stops by.)
Blog comment sections still strike me as a bit odd - they’re kind of like a floating crap game where once a front-pager puts up a new post, conversation in the previous thread stops and a new one starts in the new thread, rather than message board posts where conversations can be going on on different topics in multiple threads and fora at the same time. But I’ve been enjoying myself over there anyway.
So that’s where I’ve gone, to a place whose demographics are a lot like here age-wise, but is more diverse otherwise.
Ditto for me. I don’t really know why I was quoted upthread, other than as an example of being an old white male, which I cannot do anything about.
If I have done or said something racist, sexist, or just plain rude, (which I try not to do, but through ignorance I may well fail at) please point it out, send me an email, or Pit me for it as necessary. I will try to see your point of view and consider whether I need to apologize for something. Thanks!
Because there isn’t any deliberate racism in the D&D books.
Um, yeah? All of us are limited by our personal experience. Is that not the very nature of human life and the philosophy of phenomenology? No need to get personal here. I asked for a cite, and you could not come up with one. True, the very nature of the question might have made finding many cites difficult, but it is better to phrase such things as opinions instead of facts. As your opinion, that the board was not very welcoming (and thus women left in droves), I respect that. But not as a stated fact that they left due to that and only that.
People leave this board all the time. IIRC, some people said they were unless the C-word was allowed, and no doubt some of our real misogynists have also left- some not voluntarily. No doubt some women/younger people/whatever, left due to the demographics here.
I was sorry to see you two stop being active. We disagreed sometimes, but your posts were generally literate and thought out.
Even if true (I haven’t read them so don’t know about that one way or the other): can you seriously, in this year and on these boards, still think that “deliberate racism” is the only kind that matters?
No, of course not.
Agree. Not so funny when you are the fart in an old fart joke.
My impression of the mindset of the Doper women of 1999 when the board started was that the internet in its freaking entirety was full of male hormones, perhaps of a geekier and more Big Bang-flavored maleness than you’d find in other social venues, also better-read and more cerebral, but sometimes actually more sexist than the fratboy beerkeg party scene felllows; and the womenfolk who participated nevertheless did so because
• they were cerebral and thoughtful; some were geeky and nerdy too and not into performative femininities
• they could hold their own weilding a wicked keyboard in a way they perhaps could not shouting over the din at a party or with the perpetual threat of physical putting of people in their place by physical bullies
• some didn’t explicitly identify themselves right away as she folks and instead chose relatively genderless screen names and waited to see if they’d fit in, and often decided they did comfortably enough to let us know they were gals
I don’t think the SDMB got worse; I think the online interactive options for women got better and the policing of inappropriate behavior of all ilk got more rigorous as well, leaving the SDMB smelling more and more like a locker room.
ANd don’t even get me started on what happens when you try to start a discussion about FGM. Immediately it’s hijacked into a thread about male circumcision. No matter how many requests and reports for a new thread – nothing is ever done. Apparently, women living in third world countries under extremely sexist laws and ancient practices don’t suffer nearly as much as white men living in the west.
At least, that always seems to be how these threads end up. And it’s tiresome.
I think the board has become somewhat of a bubble, but how to counter that? Perhaps each of us can recruit a new poster occasionally. Bonus points for someone from an under-represented group (here, and IRL).
I know sometimes a literate poster is run off because their views can be different, or they ask a question and get a bunch of snark (“we’ve already discussed that in other threads so go read some before posting”). This place can be intimidating and unwelcoming to new posters of all stripes. The moderation has improved a lot but sometimes it seems like the troll-hunting ends-up with some by-catch: people get banned for unpopular views or ways they express themselves. Not saying we should lower standards, but we need to remember to roll out the welcome mat if we want to keep new posters around here.
Like I said, I specifically don’t do that, even though the notion sometimes occurs to me. Because I know the reaction after a short while will be “Why did you suggest that site? More to the point, why do you stay on there? What’s wrong with you?”
It’s not troll-hunting that would put off the people I would otherwise aim this way. If anything, that’s a part they’d like. It’s the troll-tolerance (of a certain kind of troll) that would not be appreciated.
^ This.
There was also an element of harassment and bullying that some people just didn’t see (I’m looking at you, Mr. Zotti). For instance, my claims of bullying were not taken seriously until people started sending me PM’s telling me to kill myself, blaming me for my sister’s suicide, and other, equally ugly things.
Sure, it’s always fun for the victimizer - not so much for the victim. “Ha-ha - we’re just kidding” is a frequent defense of the bully and/or harasser.
Part of the problem was the constant excuse was “I thought it was harmless fun” despite people saying over and over it was NOT harmless.
It drove a lot of people away.
I remember a few who were specific. And a lot more who simply went silent. Because most people don’t bother to post their reasons before exiting.
In the end it doesn’t matter how manner - the fact that bigotry drove anyone away is tragic and a stain on this forum.
I actually do know where those two are, and why they left. I don’t blame them, some of the treatment Una, in particular, was given was disgusting.
How is self-segregation an improvement? Leaving one echo chamber to establish another doesn’t seem like the path to enlightenment.
on this board
on the internet
…
on the internet
in the world
I don’t believe I said it was a path to enlightenment. But it’s an inevitable consequence to board cultures that are overwhelmingly dominated by male perspectives. Combined with the widening divergence in what men and women consider discussion-worthy, and it shouldn’t be surprising that women are seeking out different online communities than men.
I have noticed that this divergence has not only become massive in the last couple years, but also that it seems to go largely unnnoticed in the media and in discussions on this board and other places. For instance, I have seen zero curiosity expressed (here and elsewhere) about Biden’s low approval numbers among women. According to Reuters, only 35% of women approve of him compared to 43% men. This is probably the first time I’ve ever seen the sex divide point in this direction for a sitting Dem president. And no one here is discussing it.
I will tell you where it is being discussed, though. It’s being discussed in communities that are not male dominated.
You being topic banned from posting transphobic material is not “all diversity of thought is gone.” What you are complaining about is what should have been done years back. If the mods back then had actually taken a hard stand against all the bigotry and misogyny on the board, like they did with you, perhaps we now would have a more diverse board. Now it’s just too little too late.
So please, start that thread. I was not aware of this.
This is the hostility I’m talking about.
I express a statement about diversity of thought in general. I make no mention to any specific topics. I don’t criticize any specific posters or mods. It is responsive to the question asked by another poster in this thread.
…and in comes Captain Wokescold from the 23rd Infantry Regiment to personally harangue me for something completely off-topic. And in doing so, they just demonstrated the very problem I’m talking about with this board.
Moralizing and emotionalism has overtaken this board. It is not a place conducive for adult discussions. Nothing I have ever said on this board should merit the treatment I have received. This place really does feel like an insane asylum sometimes.