Any disagreement is not about the existence of “men”, but the definition. There have been lots and lots of tough discussions about this definitions and others, on this board and elsewhere, because the definitions and usages of these words are changing. The simple fact of changing definitions and usages appears to be extremely difficult for many to accept. And it certainly inspires strong emotions in many.
It’s not insane to have these discussions, and for there to be disagreements, and even for some people to get really angry about it, IMO. Society is changing, and language is changing, and these kinds of changes don’t happen without lots of resistance and anger.
Why are you obfuscating whether your use of the term MAN is intended to include trans women? Because that’s the entire issue. If it does, and if it’s so exhausting for you to use the unqualified words man and woman in a straightforward manner that is respectful to the human dignity of trans people, feel free to find a community that is less exhausting for you, and don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
I think it’s entirely reasonable, and not at all transphobic, for women to want some spaces to be free of men. I think most (and probably all) posters agree with me. I invite others to chime in on whether they find this objectionable in any way.
The underlying issue I got from monstro’s and YWTF’s posts is that there is not a visual difference between men and women. Walking into a restroom or locker room, a person should assume that everyone identifies as that gender regardless of what they look like. The person in the above news article with a full beard and masculine features may identify as a woman and prefer to use women’s spaces. Or they may be a man who gets off being in women’s spaces. Either may be true. Certainly many trans women take on stereotypical female features, but that is not necessarily the case. A trans woman may have fully masculine features and be sincere in their female identity. It’s going to be difficult to discuss the need for women-only spaces without also discussing how there is not always a visual difference between men and women since anyone can identify as any gender regardless of any biological or physical appearance.
I’m struggling to comprehend why you are bending over backwards to give the benefit of the doubt when we know from experience (absent explicit and necessary clarification to the contrary) what @YWTF means by the word “men”. And it isn’t what you mean.
I think I can clear this up. YWTF, since women includes cis-women and trans-women, I’m sure you’d agree with the following modification of iiandyiiii’s statement:
I think it’s entirely reasonable, and not at all transphobic, for trans- and cis-women (i.e., WOMEN) to want some spaces to be free of trans- and cis-men (i.e., MEN).
So, @YWTF, I’m sure you can agree with the above, right? If so, I don’t see how you’ll have a problem here.
If that’s the case, I can’t figure out why you think you’d be demonized for taking this position. The only way you’d be “demonized,” (or, “criticized”), I think, is if people believe you’re excluding transwomen, based on their understanding of your history on the board.