Genre Fiction Mafia

[Red_Skeezix]

@Astral_Rejection

** Red, will you vouch that the ORDER of items in my PM is exactly how you wrote it? I realize you can’t vouch for the content without breaking the game.**

**
I will not vouch for the contents of any players PM except to note this:

No where in the rules for this game does it state that all elements of a PM will be in the same order for each individual PM. Nor does it say that amongst team members all of the win conditions will be worded the same. Nor does it say that all PMs will contain exactly the same elements in number or meaning. I do my best to confound handshakers whenever possible :D.

Also, No Posting Screenshots from any players, period.

Justification: I feel that brings an element to the game which is outside the spirit of the game.**

[Astral_Rejection]

I started out doing some reading into Gnarly, but I got to reading posts by Sister Coyote, and I ended up doing my reading there. Gnarly is gonna be tomorrow in the morning.

What strikes me most about Sister Coyote is the pure amount of mechanics and fluff in their posts. I’ve long believed this is a solid early indicator of scumminess. But really, almost nothing gets said whatsoever in all of their posts (I skipped the first 6, for the record, since they were technically before the game started). Check it out:

Post 1: What normally happens over here? I’m okay with hammers.
Post 2: I’ve played with you before, plus a raised eyebrow (but no actual question) for Mahaloth.
Post 3: There might be 4-5 scum, too early to discuss power roles.
Post 4: Idle explained the question Sister didn’t actually ask.
Post 5: Red has said color may provide hints.
Post 6: I’ve done silly stuff before (in regards to Idle, who is talking about me)
Post 7: Breakdown of potential third party situations.
Post 8: Could be a jester.
Post 9: Mechanics about my name, how moderators handle names, how Pleo’s magic bag claim gets us talking. Does not weigh in on any of this.
Post 10: Hasn’t read Screamers.
Post 11: Explanation of why Sister hasn’t weighed in on me when directly asked. Explains that Sister leans Scum or Third party on me, but still doesn’t vote. Says they’d rather look around than add another vote to me. Directs attention to Winston.
Post 12: Asks if they missed a post.
Post 13: Says Ed claimed town.
Post 14: Explains comment about Winston, further explains why they didn’t talk about me at all.
Post 15: Talks about Ed’s claim of towniness.
Post 16: Easier to make cases as scum than town.
Post 17: More talk about Ed’s claim. Sister is on the defense.
Post 18: More Ed talk, plus explanation of why Sister hasn’t been scum hunting. Says they’re doing the same thing everyone else is - reading, and commenting. Says they don’t have a case on Astral. Says eventually they’ll “make a crappy case and stick with it.”
Post 19: Votes for me. Only given reason = self preservation. Says they have “no idea” whether Astral is town or not.
Post 20: Sister’s PM from Red.
Post 21: OOG about Foundation.
Post 22: Joke about new players.
Post 23: Joke about mistake in previous post.

Lots and lots and lots of comments, no attempt anywhere that I could see to actually hunt for scum. Plenty of mechanics, plenty of speculation about the game state, but no weighing in on anything of note.

Weedy points this out in post 407, noting that she’s been vague and hasn’t done anything to search for scum. Hirka’s case is also pretty compelling, in post 414. Those were the cases I was referring to when I said I liked the cases against her.

Originally, it was a gut feeling; I had read through the thread, and felt Sister Coyote had been kinda nebulous. Having read all of her posts, that feeling has been reinforced, and there’s literally nothing there giving me a townie vibe at all. So, where before I was voting primarily for self-preservation, and it happened to be against a person I had a tiny amount of suspicion on, now I feel far more confident in my vote.

Gnarly tomorrow. Since Sister and I completely negate each others’ votes, I’ll switch to Gnarly if I find him more suspicious.

[nesta]

I finally had some time to review the thread to get a better idea how things have progressed. Some of fubbleskag’s posts caught my attention so I went back through his (her?) posts and some things stood out.

First, he comes to Astral’s defense early on:

@fubbleskag

@Astral_Rejection

Oops, forgot to add @Special Ed.

I believe your win condition differs because Red, at the time he composed his first post, forgot about the double hammer thing. He already amended one of the rules, and adjusted something else, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see him post a new, updated sample PM.

For the record, though, my PM is also different from the posted one.

bolding mine - it’s pretty obvious that Astral failed to notice that a new, updated sample PM had already been posted, and was comparing his PM to the first sample, just like Ed

Then, after Astral claimed and Tom and Normal quickly unvoted, he posts this about Astral’s claim:

@fubbleskag

fwiw, I believe you.

That’s a pretty bold statement. When I read Astral’s claim it gave me pause, but I didn’t find it nearly that conclusive.

Then he asks how the other scum would treat Astral if he’s scum:

@fubbleskag

A question for the experienced players:

Assuming Astral is indeed scum, how likely is it that the rest of scum would attempt to divert our attentions to one of our own, as opposed to just writing him off as a loss and avoiding the risk of drawing attention to themselves?

So earlier fubbleskag believes Astral’s claim, but now is hypothetically assuming he’s scum. This feels like he’s hedging his bets.

@fubbleskag

@Weedy

If you believe that Astral is cop, what are you going to do? Because as it stands, he is going to be lynched. (He has 6 votes, I think)

I’m going to use my super secret role power to remove all the votes against him, obviously.

I find this post odd. When called on his defense of Astral but his lack of attention elsewhere he just jokes about it.

@fubbleskag

Thanks for this, Ed - truly eye-opening.

Vote Astral

[color removed]

After ed quotes both claim PMs fubbleskag quickly votes for Astral. For someone so strongly defending Astral before this is a quick turnaround.

I also find this sequence of posts odd:

@fubbleskag

you could post a screenshot of the pm, perhaps

He quickly suggests a screenshot as proof of Astral’s claim, and when it’s pointed out that screenshots aren’t usually allowed he posts this:

@fubbleskag

I’d love to hear the logic behind that.

Yet then he says he can post a fake screenshot without Photoshop:

@fubbleskag

fwiw, I could post a screenshot of a faked role PM without using Photoshop.

Why ask for a screenshot as proof if you already know it isn’t?

I can’t tell what he really knows about Astral, but somehow he just seems a little too sure.

Vote fubbleskag

[nesta]

@MHaye

Also, a belated greeting to nesta. I don’t believe you’ve played since the bloodbath that was Dotchan’s Ancient China game on Idlemafia; the only game to reliably kill one-half the living players in a two-Day period.

Hi MHaye. Yes, the craziness of that game was one reason I took a hiatus. I’m glad to see quite a few of those playing back then still at it.

[nesta]

@Pleonast

We still have nested quoting, you just have to do it the old fashioned way.

Does the old fashioned way require a lot of cutting and pasting? If so it’s a PITA, so the bitterness is growing.

[Stanislaus]

@Pleonast

This is a mostly safe claim of convenience. Normally, I would advocate lynching. However, since we can potentially get the identities of scum, I suggest keep Astral alive for a few Days. If they have not given us a scum by then, we should lynch them.

I don’t understand Pleo’s reasoning here. “This” above is Astral’s weak detective claim. Pleo says he would normally push for a lynch of such a safe claim. But in this game he thinks not. Here, Astral might give us scum in a few days, so it’s worth keeping him alive for a bit.

How is this different from any weak detective claim? The type that Pleo would normally advocate lynching? The logic is exactly the same in any game. So why make an exception for Astral, Pleo?

[fubbleskag]

@nesta

I finally had some time to review the thread to get a better idea how things have progressed. Some of fubbleskag’s posts caught my attention so I went back through his (her?) posts and some things stood out.

His. And thank you for not capitalizing my username - for some reason people have a tendency to do that, I have no idea why.

First, he comes to Astral’s defense early on:

Then, after Astral claimed and Tom and Normal quickly unvoted, he posts this about Astral’s claim:

That’s a pretty bold statement. When I read Astral’s claim it gave me pause, but I didn’t find it nearly that conclusive.

What’s so bold about it? I had already made it clear I felt the suspicions on here were unfounded prior to the claim.

Then he asks how the other scum would treat Astral if he’s scum:

So earlier fubbleskag believes Astral’s claim, but now is hypothetically assuming he’s scum. This feels like he’s hedging his bets.

If that’s what you want to call it, sure.

I find this post odd. When called on his defense of Astral but his lack of attention elsewhere he just jokes about it.

I joked about it because the question was ridiculous and didn’t deserve to be taken seriously.

After ed quotes both claim PMs fubbleskag quickly votes for Astral. For someone so strongly defending Astral before this is a quick turnaround.

Really? Because just a few lines ago it almost sounded like you agreed that I wasn’t defending him nearly enough.

I also find this sequence of posts odd:

He quickly suggests a screenshot as proof of Astral’s claim, and when it’s pointed out that screenshots aren’t usually allowed he posts this:

And I would still like to hear the logic behind it.

Yet then he says he can post a fake screenshot without Photoshop:

Why ask for a screenshot as proof if you already know it isn’t?

I suggested that he could post a screenshot - at no point did I say I would take it as proof of anything.

I can’t tell what he really knows about Astral, but somehow he just seems a little too sure.

So, your final thought is that I’m voting for Astral because I know that he’s scum because I’m scum?

[SisterCoyote]

FTR, I be a she.

First of all, although I have made a self-preservation vote, I have made that vote taking into consideration all my doubts about Astral’s claim and the veracity thereof. As I said in that post, I know I’m Town. I have serious doubts about Astral’s alignment. Therefore, I did vote for a player I considered Scummy – claim, or not. That it also was a way of protecting my own ass is a bonus as far as I’m concerned, but my vote is not in any way anti-Town.

Secondly, I do not like that I am being mischaracterised as having “no opinion” on Astral. I have an opinion on Astral, that I have been leaning “not Town” on Astral all along. But when there’s already a dogpile in a hammer game, I tend NOT TO VOTE for fear of accidentally bringing the hammer down.

Other than that: Y’all will do what y’all will do. I’ve defended myself as best I can at this point (which probably isn’t very well, all things considered).

I’m Vanilla Town, and if you’re going to mislynch into the Town pool, better me than a Town Power.

[special_ed]

@SisterCoyote

FTR, I be a she.

I think the Sister part is throwing people off.

Why do you continue to avoid Scum hunting?

[Pleonast]

@fubbleskag

you could post a screenshot of the pm, perhaps

No. Besides being an out-of-forum communication channel, it would turn mafia from a game of talk to a game of image manipulation. Not fun.

@Zeriel

1. I have seen a night cycle game start referred to as Night 0, Night 1, and Early Start. Either way it is probably moot until someone claims to have used a power on Night 0.

I haven’t seen a game where a Night Zero or Early Start involved the use of powers. You’re right about it being a moot point in this game.

2. Regarding Tiger Balls, I am only riffing on my character name and universe. I could reveal that without too much in the way of worry if you really think it is necessary, and I cannot see any reason Tom would be saying it that wouuld relate to my character–it’s a throwaway line in context.

While we don’t often have theme games, I have a habit of tossing in verbal tics of characters I have been assigned if I can’t see any way it will hurt me or town.

Did I miss where you claimed what your role name is? Or, were you making a soft claim or bread crumb?

@Normal_Phase

Not in the full context of that color. The noose is stated as the goal of everyone here, but locked up away from us for now (presumably but not certainly until the end of the game). It’s not a direct step from there to “somebody has the noose”, and it’s therefore necessary to ask whether Mahaloth knows something the rest of us don’t.

It’s not a direct step, but Mahaloth did not make a direct step. They started out by saying it’s unlikely anyone has the noose. Then they asked if anyone did, just to check.

It’s not something I would have done, but the progression of thought shown by Mahaloth is reasonable.

I disagree completely here (about the value of claims). The claim is part of the sum total of evaluating a player, and it very frequently (though not here) turns out definitive in one direction or the other. Astral had enough suspicion on him, for a solid enough reason, that his claiming was IMO needed, and I’m not going to beat around the bush about such things.

Yes, we need to evaluate a claim once it’s made, but I don’t see the value of forcing a claim. Now Astral can give an easy excuse for making their claim–they were forced.

If you’re implying that I didn’t vote to lynch, then you either don’t understand me or are trying to put me in a bad light deliberately. Holding me potentially responsible for the OUTCOME of Astral’s claim (in the event that he is town) as well as the fact THAT he claimed (something you also subtly exaggerate by referring to what I did as “forcing” anything) is disingenuous. Especially given your repeated assertions that you think Astral is likely not town.

Wait a minute, you directly said, “I’m keeping my vote, though, as I want him to claim.” There’s no need to imply anything when you yourself said that’s why your vote was on Astral. Why are you trying to back away from your reason? Especially when you think that forcing someone to claim is a valid tactic.

For the vote alone, or anything else?

(In reference to my vote on Sister.) Yes, it’s because of their vote. I don’t find the other cases persuasive–little more than gut feelings.

@nesta

I finally had some time to review the thread to get a better idea how things have progressed. Some of fubbleskag’s posts caught my attention so I went back through his (her?) posts and some things stood out.

I find this case against fubbleskag to be persuasive.

Let’s see what the vote rules are:
vote fubbleskag

@nesta

@Pleonast

We still have nested quoting, you just have to do it the old fashioned way.

Does the old fashioned way require a lot of cutting and pasting? If so it’s a PITA, so the bitterness is growing.

Verily. But good coding skills is what separates us humans from the animals.

@Stanislaus

I don’t understand Pleo’s reasoning here. “This” above is Astral’s weak detective claim. Pleo says he would normally push for a lynch of such a safe claim. But in this game he thinks not. Here, Astral might give us scum in a few days, so it’s worth keeping him alive for a bit.

How is this different from any weak detective claim? The type that Pleo would normally advocate lynching? The logic is exactly the same in any game. So why make an exception for Astral, Pleo?

I guess I didn’t write that clearly, because Astral had the same misunderstanding. Please go back and read our dialog about it.

@SisterCoyote

First of all, although I have made a self-preservation vote, I have made that vote taking into consideration all my doubts about Astral’s claim and the veracity thereof. As I said in that post, I know I’m Town. I have serious doubts about Astral’s alignment. Therefore, I did vote for a player I considered Scummy – claim, or not. That it also was a way of protecting my own ass is a bonus as far as I’m concerned, but my vote is not in any way anti-Town.

That’s not what it sounded like when you placed your vote on Astral. Do you really think Astral is the most suspicious player? Your vote seemed more a matter of extreme convenience to me, which is why I’m voting for you.

[Normal_Phase]

@SisterCoyote

Secondly, I do not like that I am being mischaracterised as having “no opinion” on Astral.

If you did, you gave absolutely no indication of it before I called you out. You corrected someone on “Astral’s role claim means name is connected to power”. And you chimed in on maybe Astral is a Jester, though probably not. That is all.

I have an opinion on Astral, that I have been leaning “not Town” on Astral all along. But when there’s already a dogpile in a hammer game, I tend NOT TO VOTE for fear of accidentally bringing the hammer down.

I’ve mentioned this before in other contexts, but the hammer is THIRTEEN votes. Astral has never had more than six or so, and for most of the period during which you say you were leaning not-town on Astral, it was even fewer. For fear of accidentally bringing the hammer down? There was next to no chance of that happening.

[fubbleskag]

@Pleonast

No. Besides being an out-of-forum communication channel, it would turn mafia from a game of talk to a game of image manipulation. Not fun.

I’ll concede the latter half of your statement, but if someone was to post a link to a screenshot in this thread, it would be very much an in-forum communication.

I find this case against fubbleskag to be persuasive.

Maybe you can summarize the case against me, since I was unable to discern it myself.

Let’s see what the vote rules are:

Seriously, this bullshit again?

[Pleonast]

@fubbleskag

I’ll concede the latter half of your statement, but if someone was to post a link to a screenshot in this thread, it would be very much an in-forum communication.

This forum does not allow hosting of images. A link to a screenshot is a pointer to someplace not on this forum, thus “out-of-forum”.

Maybe you can summarize the case against me, since I was unable to discern it myself.

You made a complete turn around on your opinion of Astral, from explicitly stating you believed their claim, to refusing to argue why you believed their claim, to voting for them. Too many tacks.

Seriously, this bullshit again?

The posted rules do not limit the number votes we may make and neither do they explicitly allow us to make more than one. Do you know something about the rules that the rest of don’t?

[Mahaloth]

@Pleonast

The posted rules do not limit the number votes we may make and neither do they explicitly allow us to make more than one. Do you know something about the rules that the rest of don’t?

Heh, true. I think I’m going to modify my rule explanation in my next game to include the “Pleonast rule”: 1 vote at at time.

Then again, my next game may allow multiple votes.

[special_ed]

@Pleonast

This forum does not allow hosting of images. A link to a screenshot is a pointer to someplace not on this forum, thus “out-of-forum”.

You don’t see the irony here, do you?

[Hirka_T_Bawa]

[QUOTE=Pleonast;13850836

The posted rules do not limit the number votes we may make and neither do they explicitly allow us to make more than one. Do you know something about the rules that the rest of don’t?[/QUOTE]

Ok then…
Vote pleonast for always voting multiple times.
vote pleonast for always claiming
vote pleonast for doing things contrary to the way things are done on purpose.
vote pleonast because I can.
sorry Red, couldn’t resist. Also note that I didn’t unvote first.

[Trepa_Mayfield]

@Pleonast

Okay, here we two short posts with the word “tiger” in them. This is not a word typically seen in mafia games.

I see several possibilities and I’m sure there’s more. In order from more likely to less likely:

1. They’re scum who each have to put some keyword into a post sometime during the Day in order to charge some power.
2. They have roles where they know of the other role but not the identity and this is how they found each other.
3. It’s pure coincidence.
4. They’re masons trying to breadcrumb each other.

I’d like to hear an explanation from both Zeriel and Tom.

This is insane on multiple levels.

First of all, who would pick up on that but you? Good eye!

Secondly, why on earth would the scum need to breadcrumb each other? Wouldn’t they just wait until Night 1?

Thirdly, why would you bring it up? Going off of the above, if it’s not coincidence (which I suspect it is, else I would not be posting this), they’re probably townies. Which means you just blew their cover, if you think it merits explanation.

@Red_Skeezix

**
I will not vouch for the contents of any players PM except to note this:

No where in the rules for this game does it state that all elements of a PM will be in the same order for each individual PM. Nor does it say that amongst team members all of the win conditions will be worded the same. Nor does it say that all PMs will contain exactly the same elements in number or meaning. I do my best to confound handshakers whenever possible :D.

Also, No Posting Screenshots from any players, period.

Justification: I feel that brings an element to the game which is outside the spirit of the game.**

Nice one Reddy! I don’t think I’ve ever seen a moderator come down quite so hard on handshaking before! And in such a definitive way! If you don’t mind, I’d like to borrow that speech the next time I moderate.

@Pleonast

The posted rules do not limit the number votes we may make and neither do they explicitly allow us to make more than one. Do you know something about the rules that the rest of don’t?

That is a ridiculous insinuation and you know it. Everyone other than you assumes the “one person, one vote” rule is in effect unless stated otherwise. It’s a null tell, something you are rather fond of utilizing Day 1. FOS

[Zeriel]

@Pleonast

Did I miss where you claimed what your role name is? Or, were you making a soft claim or bread crumb?

You didn’t. The claims I’m making at this time can be restated as “The character I was assigned is the kind of person to make comments about eating tiger balls” and “I do not believe the previous claim will cause any problems for town in any way, shape, or form, regardless of how color interacts with the game.”

You claim in your first post and vote multiple times? In theme games, where I know the character name I’ve been assigned, I adjust my vocabulary/style to fit the character name when funny.

[fubbleskag]

@Pleonast

This forum does not allow hosting of images. A link to a screenshot is a pointer to someplace not on this forum, thus “out-of-forum”.

You mean, kinda like the link you provided to mafia wiki earlier?

You made a complete turn around on your opinion of Astral, from explicitly stating you believed their claim, to refusing to argue why you believed their claim, to voting for them. Too many tacks.

That’s exactly two tacks, from believing his story to no longer believing it, based on new evidence. Do you realize how ridiculously poor of a supposed scum tell that is?

The posted rules do not limit the number votes we may make and neither do they explicitly allow us to make more than one. Do you know something about the rules that the rest of don’t?

Wow. Just, wow.

[Normal_Phase]

@Pleonast

It’s not a direct step, but Mahaloth did not make a direct step. They started out by saying it’s unlikely anyone has the noose. Then they asked if anyone did, just to check.

Conceded on the first point, which I had forgotten. But this didn’t look like “just checking” to me, and to some extent still doesn’t. He came within about half an inch of demanding a mass “noose” claim.

Here’s his comment in full, underlining mine:

@Mahaloth

I’m not sure if I see any hints in the color that would guide us about mechanisms/setup in the game. There appears to be some kind of noose we are looking for, but if it is behind a door, I don’t see any way for that to be part of the game.

However, worth asking.

Is anyone in current possession of the noose? Please state clearly either way.

I, Mahaloth, do not currently have the noose.

@Pleonast

It’s not something I would have done, but the progression of thought shown by Mahaloth is reasonable.

Ultimately it is, which is why I haven’t pursued it.

Yes, we need to evaluate a claim once it’s made, but I don’t see the value of forcing a claim. Now Astral can give an easy excuse for making their claim–they were forced.

Astral doesn’t need an excuse for making his claim. The argument that he claimed too early is a poor one.

Further I don’t think I have ever, in my mafia-playing history, actually seen anyone called out on claiming too early (when actually under pressure) before now. You bringing this up as a reason why my request was anti-town is just bizarre. This is the second time you’ve used post-hoc reasoning (the could-never-be-anticipated result of my action, instead of what my action would have meant at the time I did it) against me. That’s not honest debate, Pleo. And as long as I’m at it, the word “forced” is also loaded. I wanted a claim, I pushed for one, and if Astral hadn’t complied I would have held it against him (to whatever extent I could with my vote already there); to characterize that as “forcing” his claim is subtly but definitely too much.

Wait a minute, you directly said, “I’m keeping my vote, though, as I want him to claim.” There’s no need to imply anything when you yourself said that’s why your vote was on Astral. Why are you trying to back away from your reason? Especially when you think that forcing someone to claim is a valid tactic.

This is such a mess of wrong I don’t know where to start.

Pushing someone to claim whom I’m already voting for, who is himself in more than a little bit of a pickle, and whom I am severely suspicious of: appropriate.

Voting someone just to force a claim: inappropriate (and as suspicious as any other under-motivated vote).

I did the former, and I won’t apologize for or defend it. I think it was the right thing to do. But you are acting like I’m defending/disavowing/whatever the latter.

One more thing that only just crystallized:

You’re being inconsistent in your own approach to Astral, IMO. You say you believe Astral is probably scum and are only letting him off the hook on the off chance he turns up a scum for the lynch in a the next few days. That much is fine. But for you to then turn around and question me – on a point that only makes sense on any level if Astral is in fact a town detective – feels wrong in some way. It feels like if your conviction against Astral is really what you say it is, you shouldn’t be able to override it so easily, to make these arguments you’ve been making. (And yes I know your original post also included something about pushing for a claim being wrong also “if Astral is scum”, but I think that’s nonsense.)

(In reference to my vote on Sister.) Yes, it’s because of their vote. I don’t find the other cases persuasive–little more than gut feelings.

I’m uneasy about this because of your previous-stated position that self-preservation votes are inherently anti-town (and that you would vote for them on principle). That gives this vote a whiff of the automatic for me. I’m not sure it’s entirely fair given these specific circumstances, but it’s there.

I find this case against fubbleskag to be persuasive.

Well we agree on one thing, then. I think it’s a decent case, too, particularly by day one standards. Fubbles gives a bit of a “sitting back and letting it all play out” vibe. However, I will note that part of the case against him is the same thing I just pointed out as regards you, in reverse. He believes Astral, but then asked a hypothetical that requires that Astral is scum. You don’t believe Astral, but then pursue a line of questioning that IMO only makes sense if Astral is town.

unvote
vote: Pleonast