Genre Fiction Mafia

[Normal_Phase]

@Stanislaus

I too will be interested know if Mahaloth can confirm Inner’s story. Generally, I don’t see any particular reason to believe Inner’s claim - the only person we know who could confirm having been blocked had already announced he was blocked. Plus I see early claims as a sign that the claimee doesn’t think he/she can argue the case against them.

Assuming for the moment that all our claimed power roles are accurate: fluid and Tom aren’t a threat to the Scum, and may even be a bit of an asset; Astral is a threat, but seems to have been neutralised; Inner is a threat as much for his ability to e.g. block the scum role-blocker as for his chance of stopping the kill. Therefore claiming wasn’t actually a life-preserving kind of move for a Town Inner.

The rest is fine, but this last bit does not follow – a town Inner would be trying to prevent a mislynch and using the best weapon he’d have in such a situation, his role claim. What happens at night would be a secondary consideration.

(vote snipped)

Lynch the lurker is a good place to start a Day, but a bad way to finish. So hopefully pede will show up. Even if not, it’s a pretty uncontroversial place for people to leave their votes, and so slightly suspicious IMHO.

No argument there.

Tom - who did you try to investigate Night Two? Who did you investigate last Night? If you’re on the level, don’t feel you have to share your results - Scum are at least as interested in knowing if they’ve killed a power role as we are.

Also, if Tom is on the level, then being outed is problematic. He can confirm role-claims after death; if he finds an obviously contradictory role among the dead he can out a scum - but if for example he were to find that Hirka were a Doc, would that be proof Inner is lying abotu being paranoid Doc?

No (and ditto roleblocker), which indirectly is the major reason I find a mass claim with Inner’s status uncertain problematic. If we get doctor or roleblocker claims, what do we do with them? If we don’t get doctor or roleblocker claims, what does that mean? What are the odds of anything truly useful coming out of it for the town?

However, if we ever succeed in lynching scum then the obvious move for the scum will be to get rid of the coroner before he tells us what scum role we’ve bagged. If Inner is telling the truth, he can’t protect Tom without blocking him, thus negating the power anyhow. Our only hope would be a(nother) protective role to look after him.

Well, that’s true enough regardless, as more power roles are exposed.

On the Poisoner: All actions were focused on Mahaloth on Night Two - so Pleo can’t have been poisoned then.

[Normal_Phase]

@Mahaloth

I can confirm his story.

Ha! Both awesome and not awesome.

OK, Mahaloth confirms a roleblock. Astral says he was roleblocked.

Either – Astral and Inner are both mafia, covering for each other to turn one scum roleblock into two. Likelihood: if my instincts are worth anything in this game, low. (Not to mention the risk.)

Or – both are town (not-scum, technically). Scum roleblocked Astral last night, Inner demonstratrates a separate roleblock against Mahaloth.

Or – Inner is town and Astral is scum. Possible if Astral is lying, in which case most likely the scum either don’t have a roleblocker or are refraining from using one in order not to jeopardize Astral’s position.

Or – Inner is scum and Astral is town. Only possible if scum can finagle two roleblocks on at least one night. Not super likely, though not impossible.

Regardless, Inner looks like quite the townie. As a consequence I’m considerably more comfortable with the prospect of a mass claim than I was ten minutes ago. Maybe masons (if we have any) should discuss it (if they can).

[Winston_Smith]

The Boston Bruins won the Stanley Cup last night. :: party ::

Ahem.

1. LtL: I am strongly opposed to a lynch the lurker campaign. I think we’re more likely to bag a disinterested townie than determined-to-lurk scum.

2. Mass claim: I don’t know if it’s a good thing or a bad thing. I can’t remember ever playing a game in which we actually did it. If someone can recall a game where a mass claim was undertaken, and it helped town, I’d be interested in taking a gander at the game thread.

3. I need to shake out the cobwebs and re-read the last couple pages.

4. Did I mention that the Boston Bruins won the Stanley Cup last night? :: cue Dropkick Murphys ::

[Normal_Phase]

@Weedy

I was just mostly confused, and trying to understand what people were saying. I didn’t quite understand the case against you until special ed laid it out in nice numbered steps. But then Normal and Stanislaus thought you were more likely to be third party. I didn’t follow that at all, since why would a third party bring attention to he fact that there are third parties. So I was pondering that. Then you claimed, and most people backed off, except for Ed.

Actually several people voted Astral again after his claim. Silver Jan, SisC and Inner, of those who are still alive.

Ihink it was Pleonast who basically said “we can always vote for him later”, and that was what I decided as well, since I couldn’t work out if you were 3rd party or scum, or neither. Given that a lot of people were making cases and being coherent, I didn’t want to keep posting, ‘huh?’ and ‘wait, what?’ and ‘umm, I dunno’, so I didn’t say anything till I made up my mind, and by then everyone (most people) had moved on.

The comment about being confused, well, I am, quite a lot, so far in this game. It looked easier from the outside. But I obviously need to stop saying so quite so much. I can see how it would be a convenient excuse for scum to float along and not say much, but I don’t think I’m doing that. I think I say quite a lot, and I try to make it relevant and purposeful.

Up until the redirect on Mahaloth, I thought there was good chance you were scum but we could deal with you later. I was interested to see who you would investigate and what result you would claim to get even if you were scum. Now I think you are probably town.

One of the posts Astral noted I actually read as townish, the one with this:

I’m not quite convinced of Astral’s story, but I wouldn’t want to lynch a cop on the first day, so I don’t want to vote for them yet. Maybe later.

How casual it feels, or something. But the others do feel slightly on the “don’t want to commit” side, and the comments above don’t erase that.

[Normal_Phase]

@Winston_Smith

2. Mass claim: I don’t know if it’s a good thing or a bad thing. I can’t remember ever playing a game in which we actually did it. If someone can recall a game where a mass claim was undertaken, and it helped town, I’d be interested in taking a gander at the game thread.

Heroes on Giraffe comes to mind; it destroyed us (scum). Also Storyteller’s last Evil Dead game, here. They tend to be more effective in games with a lot of confirmable powers, of which this one probably qualifies. But the lack of role reveals on death is going to complicate things.

[Winston_Smith]

Normal Phase, I think this is the Pleonast post you’re referencing: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13837203&postcount=252 (Ironically, it is the very same post that got me on Pleo’s case).

@Pleonast

Confirming. Finally! the streak is broken and I’m neither scum nor vanilla. It’s good to be back.

Sorry for being late, but I don’t play on weekends and was on bed rest yesterday. Also, I’m not going to be around as much this game, but I’ll try to check in at least once a weekday. By the way, ending the Day on a Monday holiday means my last contribution for the Day is going to be on Friday.

Personally, I do not use the phrase “PFK” because I always play for keeps and believe everyone else should as well. Why play a competitive game if you don’t want to win?

I prefer “inclusive third party” for those with whose win conditions do not exclude others from winning, and “exclusive third party” for those whose do.

In one of my recent games as scum, the moderator did not tell scum who their comrades were in the role PM and we were not allowed to talk during the Day, so we effectively didn’t know who the other scum were until Day Two. It’s actually a nice bonus to the scum, since they do not have any perfect information to slip.

Are you some sort of socialist? Slumlords are the upstanding members of our community who extract the maximum amount of rent from optimally maintained properties. Without them, our real estate investments would surely decrease in value.

I think this analysis is spot-on, but the conclusion is wrong. Unless we have strong indications that a third party has a non-exclusive win condition, we must assume that them winning will be a loss for us. Remember, we win when all threats are removed, not when all scum are lynched. Thus, all third parties must be eliminated, unless there’s reliable info to the contrary.

However, once could make a case that our Vigilante (that is, a town player who can kill at Night, possibly with some restrictions) should get the first shot at any third parties. Lynching really is best used for scum. Therefore, I suggest we not lynch Astral ToDay, and instead lynch them ToMorrow, if they are still alive.

No, third parties need to be dealt with while the town has mislynches available to do it with. Closer to end game, when the number of mislynches is likely to be lower, we need to be focusing on lynching scum, period.

Interesting. Why should we expect a counter claim? A complete alignment investigator would not counter-claim you, because it’s a different role.

This is a mostly safe claim of convenience. Normally, I would advocate lynching. However, since we can potentially get the identities of scum, I suggest keep Astral alive for a few Days. If they have not given us a scum by then, we should lynch them.

I will vote for Astral on Day Four unless they’ve produced a scum to lynch. That’ll give them three Nights.

Huh? A weak investigation power is perfect for a third party–useful enough for town to think twice about lynching, not powerful enough to upset the balance too much. Agreed about trivial for scum to fake.

[Winston_Smith]

@Normal_Phase

Heroes on Giraffe comes to mind; it destroyed us (scum). Also Storyteller’s last Evil Dead game, here. They tend to be more effective in games with a lot of confirmable powers, of which this one probably qualifies. But the lack of role reveals on death is going to complicate things.

Thanks. I think I played in that game, but don’t recall the details. I’ll see if I can dig it up and take a look.

[Normal_Phase]

Are you sure you’re talking to me? (In 1146.)

[Winston_Smith]

@Normal_Phase

Are you sure you’re talking to me? (In 1146.)

I was, but I guess I should have directed the comment to Weedy instead. I wasn’t really sure who you were quoting, but on review it seems clear you were breaking up Weedy’s post into a few seperate quote boxes.

[Normal_Phase]

Ah ok. It was actually two quote boxes from one post and one from another.

[Zeriel]

@Normal_Phase

Oh my good lord. That is the most contrived rationale for blatant bandwagoning lynch-the-lurker I have ever seen.

Not being sure what you mean here–people who don’t vote are hurting town by denying us information, so it makes sense to regard it as a scum tell in the absence of a post explaining an absence. That having been said:

@Silver_Jan

I still haven’t finished reading but what I have found interesting is that** Pedescribe voted for Pleo **on Day 1 and Day 2 and did not vote on D3. I know Pedescribe has been missing but what if he knew Pleo would die and didn’t want to vote for him again. This looks very fishy to me …

SilverJan, that has got to be one of the most convoluted rationales for what should be a straightforward decision (should we lynch people who are not participating, or not?) I’ve ever seen in mafia.

[Zeriel]

@Winston_Smith

2. Mass claim: I don’t know if it’s a good thing or a bad thing. I can’t remember ever playing a game in which we actually did it. If someone can recall a game where a mass claim was undertaken, and it helped town, I’d be interested in taking a gander at the game thread.

Terminator mafia here, which I was in, pulled off a mass claim that worked insanely well and totally crushed scum.

[Normal_Phase]

I disagree. I don’t believe that absence in itself is a scum tell despite that scum do occasionally up and disappear. Town do it just as often. (Anti-town goes without saying, of course.) More to the point, Pedescribe actually did leave a halfway decent record of participation before he disappeared, and no one who’s voted him today has made the slightest effort to go look at it. That does effectively reduce all three votes to mere “lynch the lurker” formalism – when there’s other evidence available and it’s ignored in favor of “he’s not participating, let’s vote him”.

What Jan says about Pleonast doesn’t elevate the vote out of that category because it’s just so far-fetched as a potential rationale for pedescribe’s disappearance.

[Normal_Phase]

Pedescribe, on his own merits:

Day One –

Post 269: First part response to Pleonast saying he objects to PFK label as he always “plays for keeps”. Second part about Astral, post-claim.

@pedescribe

Well, sure. But it’s a team game. Playing for Keeps would indicate that you are trying to be spectacular, even at the cost of your team’s victory (and I would know).

I don’t think Astral’s being entirely honest. I’ll buy, tentatively, that he’s down. But it strikes me as odd that his role is described as “weak cop”, when the power description looks an awful lot like a regular cop. I bet there’s some sort of restriction or glitch he has that he wisely excised to avoid giving the scum a road map to destruction. And if that’s true, then it’s fairly likely that there’s another town investigative role somewhere out there. Maybe not even a cop–maybe just like, a watcher or a tracker–someone who couldn’t counter-claim but is part of the investigative town forces regardless.

283: Response to jester speculation.

@pedescribe

In our mafia group, at least, they are considered unsporting, especially without advance moderator warning. I seriously doubt that there’s a jester in the game.

399: First part response to fluid voting Pleonast for the not-quite-claim. Second part fluff at Ed. Third part response to SisC equating Ed’s “I am town” with Pleonast’s not-quite-claim.

@pedescribe

Unfortunately, he does do this every time, so I’m forced to conclude it’s a null tell–he’d do it as town, he’d do it as scum. Honestly, though, I’m a little tempted* to vote for him if it gets him to stop doing it, because it is irritating.

*That was only a figure of speech, for the record.

Ah, man, you were so close to a haiku.

This post is bugging me a lot. Ed claimed that he was town, nothing more. One could assume he was vanilla on principle, but I have a hard time believing that anyone could “read into” more information without misreading. After all, we have all implicitly claimed town, just by playing, have we not? If asked, would anyone claim non-town, unprovoked? Of course not.

Thus, I am thinking that Sis Coyote is stirring the shit pot to see if it’s sticky (to use a horrific mixed metaphor). If no-one takes the bait (to mix the metaphor worsely), then the post is irrelevant, but there’s an outside chance on starting a bandwagon on Ed for doing what we all do automatically.

It’s not much, but it’s enough for a first vote.

Vote: Sister Coyote

418: First part response to SisC defending herself as there being a huge difference between implicit claiming of town and the explicit statements made by Ed and Pleo. Second part response to SisC argument that people had assumed Ed to be vanilla due to that post. Third part response to fubbles saying he would use his super-secret power to remove votes. Who’s “luci”, btw?

@pedescribe

No, see, you’re doing it again. Ed didn’t claim anything. Pleo claimed Town power role. There is a world of difference between those two, and to lump them together…to maybe confuse people into assuming they are the same…is scummy.

Luci said he assumes everyone is vanilla unless specified otherwise. That’s it. That’s hardly “several people on each side”.

Joking or no?

537: First part response to Pleo’s “tiger” thing regarding Zeriel and Tom. Second part appreciation of Red Skeezix disallowing handshaking. Third part objection to Pleonast smudging fubbleskag.

@pedescribe

This is insane on multiple levels.

First of all, who would pick up on that but you? Good eye!

Secondly, why on earth would the scum need to breadcrumb each other? Wouldn’t they just wait until Night 1?

Thirdly, why would you bring it up? Going off of the above, if it’s not coincidence (which I suspect it is, else I would not be posting this), they’re probably townies. Which means you just blew their cover, if you think it merits explanation.

Nice one Reddy! I don’t think I’ve ever seen a moderator come down quite so hard on handshaking before! And in such a definitive way! If you don’t mind, I’d like to borrow that speech the next time I moderate.

That is a ridiculous insinuation and you know it. Everyone other than you assumes the “one person, one vote” rule is in effect unless stated otherwise. It’s a null tell, something you are rather fond of utilizing Day 1. FOS

545: Mostly more arguments with (and vote change to) Pleonast. Last bit is a correction of my confusion of him and fubbleskag, and appreciation of nesta’s case against fubbleskag.

546: Correction of vote format.

Day Two –

595: First part aimed at Tom who had just cleared Astral on dubious grounds. Second part aimed at Astral. Third part about case on gnarlycharlie.

@pedescribe

While I believe that the case on Astral is really weak, this section of your counterargument is dangerously weak as well. You are arguing from “scum would not do that territory”, which assumes that scum are rational and logical, and that you are more so. All it takes is a single line of reason you haven’t seen, or an irrational action, and you’ve outlogiced yourself.

For example: I can think of a reason scum!Astral would claim such. He wanted to claim cop so as to not get lynched, but he didn’t want to claim ‘cop’ in fear of counterclaim. So he claimed ‘weak cop’ with the power of cop, and hoped it would work out.

It’s Day 1, in which shoddily-made cases are built and destroyed by the dozens. There was a good deal of time in the Day when you claimed. It was quite likely that votes would have drifted off of you. For the record.

That is a pretty compelling case, I have to say.

775:

@pedescribe

Sorry I haven’t posted in a bit–thought Nights were Fluff-Only, and then I got caught up in an archive binge.

I don’t find the cases on either gnarlycharlie or Astral Rejection convincing, but (and correct me if I’m wrong) it’s not an either-or thing.

I’m voting for
Vote: Pleonast
again. His actions look more scummy now than they did before what with fubbleskag flipping town.

Of all of that the last two posts are the only ones that ping a bit for me. The change of opinion on gnarly from “pretty compelling” to “not convincing” is not justified by anything he actually said, 200-post gap between the two statements notwithstanding; and there is a possible scum motive in wanting to stay away from a lynching bandwagon relatively late in the day. The first post, about Astral possibly being town and lying, is just bizarre, but probably a null tell given the source (pedescribe has lied as town in the past.)

I’ll be more suspicious of him if SisC is town than if she is not – she’s the only non-Astral person he’s addressed as a suspect whose alignment is not now known (fubbles, gnarly, Pleo all town).

[Mahaloth]

Let’s do a mass claim.

We’re getting our butts kicked. I know there is risk that it will solidify the scum’s win, but I think it is a risk we need to take. It may expose them and bring this game back for Town.

I suggest that a (mostly) confirmed Townie decide the order. I’m willing to be the one to decide the order, but I’m also fine if we want to use another (mostly) confirmed Townie instead.

[Mahaloth]

Oh, and as an aside, I’m getting tired of pedescribe signing up for games and then quietly dropping out. One time he did this was in the Harry Potter game of mine. He was one of the Weasley brothers(mason/lover role) and 1. Never showed up on the mason board to even reveal himself to his partner and 2. barely played.

[Astral_Rejection]

Who is our MOST confirmed town, in your opinion? Everyone else feel free to chime in.

[Pleonast]

Sorry for the absence, but I literally just logged onto a computer with internet access for the first time since last Friday. I’ll catch up sometime today.

[Winston_Smith]

@Mahaloth

Let’s do a mass claim.

We’re getting our butts kicked. I know there is risk that it will solidify the scum’s win, but I think it is a risk we need to take. It may expose them and bring this game back for Town.

I suggest that a (mostly) confirmed Townie decide the order. I’m willing to be the one to decide the order, but I’m also fine if we want to use another (mostly) confirmed Townie instead.

Vote Mahaloth

For scum gloating (bolding mine).

[Inner_Stickler]

@Pleonast

Sorry for the absence, but I literally just logged onto a computer with internet access for the first time since last Friday. I’ll catch up sometime today.

You’re dead, you donut.