Before some asks, I use Federal Nyclad 158 grain SWC-HP. I just really like these bullets. They’re easier on the barrel, release less lead into the atmosphere, and are less prone to overpenetration than metal-jacketed bullets.
Theres been a lot of good advise here. From experience I would advise you to pay close attention to Tranquillis’ posts.
If you must use a long gun, IMHO, a Remington 870 is the best. I have one my grandfather gave me and he hunted with it for many years. That is the smoothest racking gun ever…but I digress. They are sturdy, very dependable and a good value.
As for the gauge, really you should go with a 12. Balancing your life with your GF’s comfort while practicing is a no brainer. Don’t loose site of your goal here. #6 shot should be fine for KD power at close range and if it does go through the wall it won’t kill anyone, though personally I wouldn’t use ‘less’ than # 4.
Used guns are just fine, provided a good gunsmith gives them the OK. Actually, if they have been properly cared for, a used gun will have a smoother action. A good thing for someone not accustomed to guns.
Lastly, I’d tie a piece of white cloth around the end of the barrel to help you aim in the dark as sites won’t help in those situations anyway.
Keep a phone nearby - call 911 first!
And remeber, any shotgun (and most pistols) is going to produce a significant muzzle flash at night. Close one eye just before you squeeze the trigger when firing in the dark. Then you’ll have at least one eye that still has some night vision left.
That’s the best piece of advice in this whole thread.
Get a cordless phone, and have the handset with you at all times when you’re in the house. When you leave, place the handset near the door you expect to return through, so you can pick it up immediately as you come home. If you’ve got cell phone, see if you can get a decent signal while in the house. If so, just make a habit of keeping it on you at all times. Never go in the house if you thing there may be an intruder in there. Call the authorities, and watch you place from a safe distance. When you call 911, if at all possible, stay on the line. Keep the operator updated on whats going on. Make sure you tell her that you’re armed. Tell her where you are in the house, and how many civilians are present. Don’t go to confront the intruder, except to protect someone’s life. You are more likely to survive if the intruder has to come to you.
It’s been said before, but let me clearly state it for the record:
The best self-defense weapon is the one that you can safely, competently, and comfortably use.
If you flinch every time you fire a particular weapon, it’s a bad choice. If you can’t pick up the weapon in the middle of the night and activate it without thought, it’s the wrong choice. It the weapon is too long to move about the house, or too heavy to hold on target, it’s the wrong choice. Certain types of weapon ar highly suted to home defense, and that’s what we’ve been telling you about. Once you’ve narrowed the type of weapon down (and excluded the junk), there’s stll a lot of room for personal preference. Find what works for you: You’ll trusting your life to it.
The only way you’ll be sure is to go to the range, and try out a wide variety of options, then pick one or two that work for you, and stick to them. Practice until the guys at the range know the sound of your car pulling up, and know how you like your coffee.
Me, I personally depend on a 12 guage Beretta 1200FP, backed up by a Colt Gov’t Model Series 80 in .38 Super, but that’s exactly the wrong combo for my wife, and she uses her choices. If it’s not working for you, get a different weapon.
I agree with FallenAngle, If you go the Shotgun route, Don’t use anything less than 4 shot, .129 inches in diameter.
The larger shot will give you more lethality (sp) at a longer range.
OTOH, if you shoot someone from 20 feet or less, it won’t matter much. The shot will hit them as one large mass.
Yep the sound of a pump shotgun being cocked/loaded is a scary one. But not something I would ever count on.
I would go for an auto-pistol. 9mm or .45 would be fine. Don’t get me wrong, they will pass through walls. Use light weight hollow points. The hollow points are more likely to fragment and slow down as they pass through walls.
It’s admirable that you are concerned for you’re neighbors. But a wild shot is pretty unlikely to hit anyone. I hear about it maybe once a year? And that is usually from someone “cleaning” their gun, or idiots firing into the air on New Years. And besides, If you shoot straight through a wall (2 - 1/2in pieces of dry wall) from 10-15 feet away a Shotgun could most definitely kill someone.
With proper training you won’t accidentally fire it. And hopefully you don’t celebrate New Years that way. Statistically speaking, you will probably never use it for self defense, so you’re neighbors are safe.
Also, an auto pistol is smaller and easier for you to find a safe place to hide in your apartment. You can attach a holster under your nightstand or something and keep it within easy reach but well concealed. Another plus is that you can pull the clip out of it to make it safer. Keep the clip concealed as well and when you need it you can have it loaded and ready to go with 10-15 shots in a mater of about 4 seconds. Or leave it loaded. But, if you have small children or company with kids coming over, unload the gun and keep the bullets-clip in a separate spot.
FTR - I live in a secluded area in the Rockies. My closest neighbor is about a mile away. Closest “Town” 4 miles. I’m not too concerned about crime but I can’t really count on the Sheriff. I figure I would be on my own for about a half-hour or so.
I keep a .357 at the ready. I used to keep a .30-30 (lever action carbine - think cowboy rifle) loaded as well. We do have bears in this area as well as mountain lion so that kind of justifies the hardware. The .357 was a gift, if I where to buy something new for protection it would probably be a .45.
Tranquilis is right on. You have to have something you are comfortable with. My wife has thought about having something she would feel comfortable shooting, but she just doesn’t seem committed to it. So, I don’t push her. You’ve got to know how to use it AND be willing to use it.
When it comes to the 12 or 20, if you’re going to chose one over the other because you’re afraid of damage, the 20 will still blow through a lot of shit, don’t worry, you’ll still be replacing a good piece of your neighbors BMW, by the way, he’s a lawyer… My advice, go w/ the 12.
One nice thing about a shotgun is that there is no other sound quite like it when you jack a shell in the chamber - thieves will definitely get the idea, that’s for sure!
Perhaps next time I’ll read the whole thread before posting a comment made 3-4 times already. :rolleyes:
Duh on me.
I know almost nothing about firearms, so I won’t offer advice about that. I do, however, wonder whether you’ll be living with kids and how much that plays into your decision. I’m not sure if one category of gun is wiser to have than another if kids live in the house. (BTW, I’m not trying to cast aspersions on your wanting protection, I’m merely trying to bring up other considerations)
Hence the advice on the quick-access gun safes. Keeps the casual, curious, and inexperienced hands off the weapon, allows you to store it in Condition 1, and allows someone with the proper code near-instant access.
Great idea on the gun safe. I have thought about one for myself.
It would suck to walk into your house only to find a burglar that you have conveniently armed.
At least with an auto-pistol it’s easy to pull and really hide the clip while you’re away. This is something that you will probably tire of doing after a week or so. Or, it will be unloaded when you need it.
You may be able to find two easily accessible yet hidden places that are close together. Leave the gun in one and the clip in the other. Hopefully a thief won’t find both. Still, this leaves you with a gun that is unloaded when you need it. I would hope that your doors and windows are secure enough that you will hear someone coming in. That should give you the few seconds to arm yourself.
If you find yourself waking up, looking down the barrel of a gun, it’s not going to mater much how available your gun is.
I’ve said it before, he’s saying it now, and I’ll reiterate it again. In a situation like this, you really don’t want to have to worry if you took the safety off or not. You want to know that when you pull the trigger, it will save your life.
Again, this is great advice. Maybe you have a friend through a friend or two that you can talk to, who knows a respectable range? Find a range you like and trust, and start the process. And make sure you try all the models you are thinking about.
I think one point that hasn’t been brought up yet, is to practice what you’d have to do, in your house! It sounds a bit paranoid, but even a few repetitions may ingrain it into you that at first hint of danger, you can quickly take cover and hit the speed dial. Stand in your room, and mentally go through the motions once or twice, then grab a broomstick and practice. Find the safest spot now, rather than when yer under pressure. Walk around the house, and find a few corners you can hide in, in case you just happen to be in, say your living room, basement, or even garage. I think the particular situation of being asleep in bed is extremely limited, and unfortunately lulls a lot of people into a one-tracked mind. . .
Tranquilis, you sound like a Marine.
Tripler
This site, the IDPA, has some good ideas for situations and tips. Take a look, it may help. . .
Saw .38 Supers in action at IPSC matches, yikes! For a second I thought I forgot to put my hearing protection back on. I would think this particular round would be a serious overpenetration issue. Don’t these things fly in the 1800+ FPS range? I’m not familiar with the exact performance envelope for the round I just know they are a hot load. Then again if you are faced with a bad guy in a vest, I guess you’re covered.
Nope, but I’ll take that as a compliment. I was, however, in the Nav for 15 years, and my duties included things like Reaction Force, Rescue and Assistance Detail, and Counter-Sniper. I’m Navy Expert Pistol & Expert Rifle, and am the son of a former world-class combat handgunner. It tends to rub off.
There can be an overpenetration issue, depending on what you’ve got loaded. For IPSC matches, you were almost certainly looking at folks firing handloads worked up to “Major”, and yup, they’re hothothot. The fastest “major” load I’ve worked with is a 158gn FMC loaded on top of 9.7gn of AA No.9 powder. It moves downrange at an average of 1100fps. For home defense I load the first 2 rounds with Glasers (which my beast eats like candy), backed up with 7 rounds of factory-loaded 115gn JHPs, moving out at about 1350fps. The Glasers don’t worry me irt overpenetration, the JHPs do, a bit, but if the Glasers don’t do the trick, I want more punch. Besides which, the Colt is my back-up piece anyway. The Beretta shotgun is my primary weapon, and loaded with six rounds of #4, it’ll be a bad day before I need to go to the pistol.
While we’re on the subject of ammunition, another point… Don’t use handloads for home defense, if it can be at all avoided. It presents two issues:
- Will the round be reliable? For most skilled hand loaders, this is a very minor risk, but for less skilled loaders, it can be a very serious risk.
- Liability. If you shoot someone in self-defense, ther is almost certain to be filed against you a civil suit. In your plans and preparations for home defense, you want to keep a practical eye towards libility. A shyster going after you will grab any detail he/she can to make you look bad in the eyes of the jury (don’t blame them too much… It is their job, after all…
)., and heve in the past tried to make the kind of ammunition used and issue. They’ve tried claiming that the handloads used were specifically worked up to be deliberately inhumane and vicious. Yeah, I know. Pretty cheesy, blaming the homeowner for defending himself, but it has happened. Using factory ammo, even frangible ammo, removes this tool from the plantif’s toolbox. Also, for the same reason, it’s prudent to avoid the use of military-style long guns, to avoid being painted as a “Rambo” or vigilante.
It was. I haven’t heard “Condition 1” in a really long time. Last time was from a few Marines. Remind me never to piss you off. . . 
Tripler
I’m a budding EOD student (next PCS, hopefully) myself.
Yes. I wanted to chime in with this earlier, but the OP is clearly interested in shotguns. However, after thinking about it, I suggest he consider also acquiring a revolver. Shotgun combat tactics are different from handgun tactics. Specifically, you need more room to wield it, especially if you’re approaching a target from around a corner.
I have a Mossberg 550 Marine 12-gauge for home defense, but when I moved into a small apartment I found it was too big. So I bought a S&W 686 (7 shot cylinder, 4" barrel, SS finish) several years ago, and after taking it to the range a few times, I’m really impressed with it. Double action firing takes some getting used to, but in target practice, the single action is really smooth.
The other advantage of a revolver, one I didn’t anticipate, is that they’re a lot easier to clean.
Well, the 686 has a seven shot barrel, so the margin is even narrower. And of course, I’m sure every 7-shot owner has secretly fantasized about surprising some dirtbag with that seventh shot. 
It does make the speedloaders a little harder to find, though. And you’re left with one odd round after shooting a box of 50. (What do you do with that, anyway?)
Well, I’ve never fired a 20-gauge, but did shoot a 16-gauge as a kid, and I don’t think full .357 loads are any harder to handle than a 16-gauge. And I was a pretty scrawny kid.
Besides, you don’t want to fire Magnum loads in home defense. I use Federal Silvertip JHP… the box is at home but I believe it’s a 130gr load, and the hollowpoint won’t “shoot thru schools.” I live in a fairly densely populated suburban neighborhood and any missed shot will very likely intercept a residence.
And there is a big difference between firing home defense rounds and magnum rounds. At the range, I start with firing a cylinder of magnum rounds, just to stay used to them. The first one is always a jolt.
And, of course, after that shooting the .38 rounds feels like I’m firing a cap gun.
And you need to be careful about reloads. Most ranges’ reloads are perfectly fine, but I’ve bought reloads at some places, including gun stores, that were made with real cheap powder. I don’t know what they used, but every round left a huge cloud of smoke, and after shooting just two cylinder loads the rangemaster asked me to stop. When I cleaned the gun later, it took half a can of breakfree to rinse the powder residue off the gun. The amount of black grime was simply astounding.
That’s one of the reasons I chose the .357, and the 12 gauge – the versatility of ammunition. Who knows when ammo may become hard to acquire? It probably won’t happen, but if it does, I don’t want to be stuck needing some exotic caliber. That, and I can “stack” the cylinder with two 130gr loads, two 158gr +P loads, and then three Magnum loads in case they’re needed! Just the escalation of noise may be an effective deterrent.
Also, when I fire semiautomatics, I have to fight the tendency to fire too fast. With the revolver, shooting single action, I’m a lot more careful where I aim. And if I ever have to fire the weapon in self defense, I don’t want to panic and wildly fire off an entire clip like some gangbanger…
The real disadvantage of the revolver, though, is reloading. Even with speedloaders, it just doesn’t compare to snapping out a clip and popping a new one in.
Having worked security in an incredibly bad apartment building(at one time, two burglarys a week), I would like to put in my two cents…
I have had to do room to room searches with a riot shotgun hundreds of times. It was part of my job, I would find an appartment some junkies had broke into to shoot up, and clear it, often with no backup, and no radio. I carried a shotgun, because most of the conflicts we were likely to have was from gangs on the parkinglot, and I carried 000 buck, because I needed something that would go through a car door. It was an old brick apt building, so I had at least a chance that it wouldnt go through the walls. This job sucked. The shotgun was great outdoors, but indoors it is a nightmare. walking through a dark, tight hallway at 3 in the morning, with something that long is bad. If someone jumps out at you from around the corner, getting something that long pointed at them and firing as they grab for it is hard. If you carry it out in front, barrel level, you risk them seeing it before you see them, and them grabbing it or deflecting it as they put a knife into you or shoot you. IF you carry it pointing up, all they have to do is charge you before you can bring it down…your dead. carry it pointed down is a little better, you might blow off one of thier feet as they kill you.
Eventually, I got smart, and put a sling on it. That way, if alone, I could sling it and draw my sidearm indoors. If my partner was there, he went first, with his .45 gold cup, and I backed him up with the shotgun. He often would carry a mini-14 on duty as well.
A pistol is much better for defense indoors. A large caliber, .40, .45 or 357 mag. Carry it tight against your body, barrel forward or down if searching your house, so if someone jumps out at you there is little to grab. Never carry it pointed up. Remeber, they can dive under your gun(and prevent you from bringing it down), but they cant fly above it.
Revolvers have an advantage over autos in that they dont jam. You pull the trigger and it fires. The disadvantage is that if they grab the cylinder, they can concievably prevent it from firing(in double action). NEVER use single action in self defense. Period. There is too many legal problems that result. What was a justifiable shooting can end as an accidental shooting, which is not justifiable ever. Masaad Ayoob has written some good articles about this.
I like the glock for home defense because if the simplicity, and reliability. I would never use a 9mm. As a cop friend of mine is fond of saying “why would I want a 9? I have a .22 if I wanna shoot a dog or something”. Too little stopping power.
That said, my personal defense gun is a berretta 96 .40 cal, loaded with Mag Safe ammo. But I practice with the safety.
OK, more interesting points are being brought up.
IRT to wheel guns (revolvers), They’re nothing to sneer at, and have the very strong advantage of simplicity, which in a moment of stress, especially for someone who hasn’t spent enough time on the range, can be a life-saver. Reloading is problimatical without much practice, but in the vast majority of home defense scenarios, one cylinder is going to be plenty. I’ll respectfully disagree with the ‘flexability’ arguement, however. As noted above, I load my m1911a1-family Colt with Glasers, then JHPs. I can just as easily stack more different kinds of ammo, if I so choose. My pistol will eat Glasers, JHP, RN, FMC, TC, and SWC ammo, in ‘standard’ or ‘+P’, and I can even find shot shells for it, If I’m willing to pay for them. It’s 9+1 (9 in the magazine, 1 up the spout), so I can get pretty creative if I want. 9mm has an even wider range of readily available types of ammunition, so versatility isn’t really an isse, if you’re willing to test a range of ammo to see what you weapon wiil eat.
IRT to the power (or lack thereof) of 9mm ammo: Poppycock. In real-world shootings, the 9mm military ball ammo is just as effective, within fractions of a percent, as the .45 military ball (Marshall & Sanow). 9mm is a world-wide proven cartridge, even if military ball ammo is a sucky choice. Some loadings are very effective indeed. Again, it boils down to what you’re comfortable with. People tend to get religious about their weapons and calibers, and that’s just fine. A person should be passionate about their weapon & cartridge: They’re trusting their life to it, so they’d best believe in their choice. Believing in a particular combination is fine, but that doesn’t make a particular combinbation ‘recieved wisdom’ from on high. It just means that someone has found a workable choice.
(This doesn’t mean that I’m a pure Marshall & Sanow guy. I also follow Fackler’s work)
IRT handguns vs. long guns: There are few, if any, handguns readily available that can match the power of a full-caliber long gun. Even a .357Mag pales in comparison to the sheer power of a shotgun. Pistols are notoriously lacking in that principle ingredient of an effective round: Muzzle energy. A good, powerful handgun is useful, but never forget that it’s not a magic wand. With a handgun, shot placement is critical. Any signficant shotgun wound, on the other hand, is pretty much a show-stopper, even if it’s an extremity hit. As for manuevering a shotgun in close quarters, well, that can be an issue, but as you should only be moving in the house if you’ve got to go protect someone, it’s less of an issue for home defense, as opposed to clearing a house (which is, by nature, offensive movement). Ideally, you hear the intruder, you call 911, grab your shotgun, and fort-up, while waiting for the police to arrive. Sometimes, you may have to move, and in those cases, an pistol makes somewhat more sense (which is why I use a shotgun and a pistol). It’s quite possible to manuever a shotgun in close quarters while maintaining a combat effective posture, but it takes practice (Back to the range! Re-read Stressfire!). I may be a bad example, as I was trained in close-quarter ship-board combat with pistol, shotgun, and rifle. I’ll take the shotgun whenever possible, thankyouverymuch! Practical consideratons not withstanding, a shotgun is quite useful, and is not hard to learn.
Again, it all boils down to what works for you. I wouldn’t recommend anything below .380, and .380 only with grave reservations, but once you get above that, pretty much any popular handgun cartridge will do, as long as your weapon is reliable and you practice. Do you get the idea that I feel practice is kinda important? Pretty much any common slide-action or double barrel shotgun above 20gage will do, provided… (everyone sing it together now!) …you practice!!