She lost her grandmother, not you. She’s the one mourning the loss of a grandmother, she’s the one who saw her grandmother suffering. She brings up her grandmother, in a highly emotional way. So - what to do? LEAVE IT ALONE, that’s what you should do. LEAVE IT ALONE. Merely say “I’m sorry about your grandmother” and then LEAVE IT ALONE. If you are not sure you can say something comforting or helpful, LEAVE IT SO ALONE.
You may privately think any manner of things about alice for bringing up her grandmother on this board, but publicly, you LEAVE IT ALONE. No good will come of you saying one iota, one molecule of a whisp of a criticism against her dear, departed grandma. Not ONE good thing will come of that. And see? No good came of it, did it? Do you think anything good came from it? I am not talking about alice bringing up her grandma, I am talking about how you reacted to her bringing up her grandma.
It’s good that you said that you shouldn’t have brought up the name-calling, and I can see that you were trying to (kind of) mend fences. But, one universal truth that I have learned - when someone brings up a departed relative (especially a recently departed relative) is that you LEAVE IT ALONE. Don’t criticize the dear departed. Say something sympathetic, and then don’t touch it. You didn’t do that.
Have you ever lost a loved one? I have. I didn’t need to hear my dead loved one discussed in such a way, especially right after I lost that person. It’s not useful, or helpful. It doesn’t fricking matter if it’s “the truth” or if “I didn’t mean it that way”. It’s just a useless comment to make. My gosh, some people need to learn to shut up about such things.
Okay, yosemitebabe, I get your point. I’ll try this one more time. I’m not an insensitive jerk. On the contrary. Despite what a great many might be thinking.
If she had not said, “Now, what was that point you were trying to make?”, things would be much different. That line disgusted me. Using the suffering of a loved one as a badge of honor is repulsive. She brought it up in an emotional way right up until I read that line. After that, it went from emotional to functional. Now I’m the bad guy.
To answer your question, yes, I’ve lost several loved ones. But I don’t go around sharing their pain and suffering with strangers on public bulletin boards for all the world to see.
Your point is clear: NO MATTER WHAT, walk away.
My point is equally clear: If you intend to gain from someone else’s pain and suffering, you will get flamed. Gaining like that is a wrong thing to do. I’m not talking about just mentioning what happened on a board, I’m talking about using it as an emotional blackmail tool, which is exactly what she did.
But you see, that what she did won’t universally be seen as that. I think she was distraught, and brought up her personal pain because she was distraught. You see her motives as something different. You are entitled to interpret her motives that way, but still, I ask you - did anything good come from you saying anything negative about her grandma? No, I don’t see that anything good came of it.
Don’t you think that you could have discussed this issue without dissing her grandma (even a little) in the process? If you think she used grandma as “emotional blackmail”, then don’t discuss her grandma. Leave grandmother out of it. It takes two to play that game.
Ok, seeing as how this is my dead grandma we’re discussing, perhaps I shall join the discussion, ummm, K?
cmosdes, despite what you may think - I’m not trying to debate you. I never was. I hate smoking. I said that I hate smoking - a lot.
brujo asked “Has anyone died of 2nd hand smoke anyway?”
To which I replied “probably”. Now, that’s not really a persuasive argument. I know that. It wasn’t meant to be a persuasive argument.
If you read, I went on to say that 2nd hand smoke has probably killed some people, but it has DEFINATELY made some people pretty miserable with asthma, allergies, etc. etc., which, in my opinion, is enough of a reason that people shouldn’t be forced to exposed to it by inconsiderate strangers.
So then you introduce a bizarre comment about Canadian breath. Had you been upset with my argument, you probably should have said - “Alice that argument blows goats” at which point I would have clarified.
In face, when I typed “Yah, probably. And while I can’t prove that’s true, you can’t prove it’s not true.” I thought to myself -
“Self - that’s not a cogent argument.”
To which I replied
“True, but this is The Pit, not Great Debates, so it doesn’t have to be cogent.”
However, you had that Canadian thing going, so I tried to clarify my point:
Then you said:
Actually, what I said was:
That was my entire argument, right there. “Those other factors” seem to play a pretty key role in my argument - coming first and all. I would have thought that the whole “PROVEN” sort of added emphasis as well.
So you went on to say that you’d done a crappy job of pointing out my non-cogent argument. Great. You then went on to say:
You also suggested that such legislation would be “outrageous”.
And I pointed out that someone had beaten you to the legislation:
Also:
Then, if I recall correctly, you called me a:
and went on to add:
In an attempt to justify why I might have an interest in you and your lungs, I shared the much publicized story about my grandmother.
As a little FYI - my grandma started smoking when she was about 19. Doctors still told people that smoking was an excellent way to relax, back in the '40’s. She quit in 1978 - about the time that all the ill effects of smoking were really becoming known and publicized. So, actually - she quit 26 years ago, which I realize is slightly under your *30 year window, but hey - cut the gal some slack - a 30 year habit is hard to break even if it is bad for you.
Now, my story was pretty graphic, to which you take exception. Fine, you’re allowed to. However, this is The Pit - probably the perfect place for graphic stories. You’ve suggested that I’m attempting to somehow gain by my grandmothers death, because I told the details. What you couldn’t have known, is that my grandmother was violently opposed to smoking when she died, and was confident that the horror she was going though was caused by her smoking, all those years earlier, before the negative effects were known. One of the many times I was visiting and talking with her, she told me that no one should have to suffer like she was. In fact she said that perhaps if people knew what kind of suffering was in store for them if they smoked, they would never start. Now, granny didn’t actually say “Post my story on a message board”, but she did tell me that if I saw young people smoking, I should tell them what she went through. I’m willing to bet that there are some young people on this board - perhaps even reading this thread. I hope that if any of them read what happened to my grandma, they will think twice about smoking - I know that’s not really human nature, but if it works, my grandma will be happy.
Ok, so that’s why I posted about my grandma.
Now, if I’m not mistaken, that’s when you said:
See, now, that made me really, really mad. When my grandmother found out about how bad smoking was, she quit.
Regardless of that, the fact still remains that even if my grandmother had smoked up until the day she died, and even if it was her fault, you were totally and completely obnoxious in suggesting it at that point. Insensitive. Rude. Grossly out of line. It was despicable, as far as I’m concerned. Wait until a person has exposed a recent wound to their psyche and then kick them when they’re down. Like I said - all class. :rolleyes:
Oh, I’m pretty sure you ranted about “fucking liberals” a bit after that as well.
Now, why, exactly is being a liberal a bad thing? Yes, I think gays should have the right to marry. Yes, I’m pro choice. Yes, I support gun control. So what? There are lots of people on these boards that agree with me. How do any of those things make me unaware of personal responsibility? I certainly never suggested that I was in favor of the litigious behaviour so common in the US. I was as stunned as everyone else when that silly woman received such a huge settlement from McDonalds for spilling her coffee on herself. I never suggested that I was going to sue the to tobacco companies on behalf of my dead grandma either.
I just really don’t think people should smoke. I told you why - in apparently too much detail for your liking. It’s my opinion - honestly, I don’t care if you agree with me or don’t agree with me - it’s just my opinion.
I’m really not interested in debating with you. Like I said, unless I really put my mind to it, and devote more time to the boards than I like, I not very good at it. yosemitebabe is right - you SHOULD go play in Great Debates.
Finally, I really have no animosity towards you - this is a message board, and you didn’t KILL my grandma - you just belittled her death. As far as I’m concerned, that makes you kind of a rotten person, but so what? I’m certain that my opinion - a complete stranger- doesn’t mean very much to you, and it shouldn’t. For me, all it means is that there’s one more jerk in the world - ok, I’m a student of human behaviour - I know there are jerks in the world. It just makes me a little bit sad whenever I have the misfortune to meet one.
That is all. Please, feel free to flame me now. You seem to have developed quite a taste for it.
It won’t be seen that way universally, no. That implies there are those that will, though. And maybe, in my dream world, a few that are reading this now will understand my explanation and think that maybe, just maybe I might have something. But then again, maybe not. To be honest, I’m really very comfortable with what happened. Except for the name calling, of course.
No, nothing good. On that we agree. I still see her as holding out that story like a shield, and then dismissed me and my views as insignificant because she had suffered. If you don’t agree she did that, no problem. If you can see where I could reasonably interpret it that way, we may have gotten somewhere. Why is it so easy to see her motives but not mine?
As I’ve said, I could not let that go just like I could not let her get away with “I can’t prove I’m right, but you can’t prove I’m right.” Her bringing up grandma was her idea, not mine. And she did it with motives I find completely reprehensible, at least in my interpretation of what she did.
I completely and totally respect the grieving process and all it entails. Many people find themselves talking about their losses in places they never dreamed, especially when they are reminded of those losses. Reading her post I felt for her. I really did. Until suddenly my view of her use of that story changed for me completely.
alice - Thanks for the great response. You helped clarify a lot of things. Obviously my view of what transpired is a little different, but not enough to want to go through it all. You can read what I have been writing recently and probably put together the pieces of where I was coming from.
WITHOUT going into details, I don’t think liberals are a bad thing. I agree with a fair number of issues you talked about (although anyone that reads the full information about the McDonald’s case may change their minds). I think fucking liberals are bad. People who think the gov’t should protect all people at all times. Your comments led me to think of you that way.
alice - For someone that came here just to vent, you really, really are starting to push things. But given my previous indiscretions, you’ve earned an explanation or two.
I had no other explanation for your statement dismissing all other arguments. If you can profer one, feel free. It won’t change anything, though, and only give an explanation to something that was obviously wildly misunderstood. My interpretation was not an unreasonable interpretation, in my opinion. YMMV. [humor] See dealer for details. Void where prohibited or taxed. Not available in all areas. [/humor]
Yep. Guilty as charged. Again, I had no other explanation. And I did try to find one. I couldn’t believe someone would do what I thought you had done.
No, I insulted you for having concern for me; for pretending to presume to know what is best for me.
Location: Pit. Objective: Flame on.
You fired, I fired. Once again you ridiculed me by saying something like, “next you’ll be telling me my grandma is just resting her eyes.” I fired back.
dudette- In the vein you used the reference it did not appear (to me) to be stricly a Monty Python humorous interjection. In other words, it appeared to be at least partially another shot. As I said, I fired back.
Unless there are no more questions, it is time for me to bid a find adieu. As I said, I’ll see you around the boards. Can’t wait to see what happens if we find something we disagree on.
Again, finding nefarious intent where none exists.
I think you must *work with criminals too much.
*N.B. For the humour impaired - that was a joke. Ha Ha. Funny, funny. He’s a lawyer. Works with criminals. See?
Ya got someone who agrees with you cmosdes. I could see your motivations, although I think you could have cut Alice’s grandma a little slack…that WAS a bit on the harsh side. by the way, what DO you do? You’re mighty secretive about it…CIA?
Alice, you get upset at cmosdes for arguing with you, but you instigate it. He apologizes and you just keep coming back. You’ve insulted him just as much as he insulted you, and i’m sorry but you WERE using your grandmothers story to invalidate cmosdes’s argument, which left it open to critisism. While this ISN’T great debates, you still should be required to give SOME logical back up information to any statement you make. That’s just good communication. I just think that you should never say anything that you aren’t prepared to back up, no matter what situation you’re in, especially on a message board though. But please smile, because your grandmother’s story made a big impact in my recently quitting smoking wish me luck. It’s day 6.
Ya got someone who agrees with you cmosdes. I could see your motivations, although I think you could have cut Alice’s grandma a little slack…that WAS a bit on the harsh side. by the way, what DO you do? You’re mighty secretive about it…CIA?
Alice, you get upset at cmosdes for arguing with you, but you instigate it. He apologizes and you just keep coming back. You’ve insulted him just as much as he insulted you, and i’m sorry but you WERE using your grandmothers story to invalidate cmosdes’s argument, which left it open to critisism. While this ISN’T great debates, you still should be required to give SOME logical back up information to any statement you make. That’s just good communication. I just think that you should never say anything that you aren’t prepared to back up, no matter what situation you’re in, especially on a message board though. But please smile, because your grandmother’s story made a big impact in my recently quitting smoking wish me luck. It’s day 6.
