I was raised Catholic, and yes, you are right.
As a matter of fact, I have asked many a priest this question: “What happens if a person lives a pretty virtuous life without ever knowing that Jesus Christ is their savior?”
The standard response is: “Only God can know who is saved and who is not.”
Of course, I have many other issues regarding the Catholic church and it’s teachings, but that always made logical sense to me.
I dont think this means what you think it means gobear. I took this to mean that man should not look to the physical, tower of Babel comes to mind, for saving. Or money, power etc…but look to God. Im not sure how this supports your earlier statement.
Of course that is the problem with the Bible, everything written in there can be interupted many different ways.
Gobear: with all due respect, you and I essentially this same discussion when you were talking about Republicans being anti-gay. The problem seems to me to be the same, that you are making groups fallaciously fungible. It is no more true that all christians are schmucks than that all Republicans hate gays.
I hope you can understand that to a loving Christian, your rhetoric is needlesly inflamatory?
Essentially had, damnit, had. Yeesh, and I previewed too!
No, it still pretty much supports his point. “Salvation” comes by the grace of god, through faith in him. Not by the physical–not works, not charity, not Babel. Just through Big Juju.
Who in this thread said all Christians are schmucks? Certainly not gobear.
BTW, if you want to get into WTF Paul was getting at here, which isn’t evident in prooftexting, you’re cordially invited to start a GD thread on the topic. It actually makes sense, and is the complete opposite of the “morality doesn’t matter” implications they seem to have when taken as isolated verses.
I think the point that got him dragged into the pit was this one:
What is being argued now may be related, but it is different, and is decidedly less controversial. It ain’t my thread, but I recognize a switcheroo when I see one.
If it walks like a schmuck, and it quacks like a schmuck… 
Unless Gobear implicitly has the word ‘some’ included, and I honestly don’t think he does, then he’s talking about how all christians believe in power divorced from virture and control without limits.
I also think that the inclusion of ‘some’ would’ve left the statement pretty much harmless as tapwater.
Well, you would say that, because you’re gay.
Disclaimer for the “humor”-impaired: gobear has said many times that one of his biggest pet peeves is bringing sexuality into conversations where it’s irrelevant.
You do know, I assume, that the question of “faith” vs. “good works” is a pretty elaborate and complex one in Christianity? And while I would agree that faith is considered the most important (for obvious reasons – to me at least), love is absolutely integral to the religion.
Anyway, we’ll get back to that. You started by making the statement, “Christians do not believe in love…” You did this either to stir up a shitpot, to play with that big chip on your shoulder, or to piss people off. Cause you know well and good that if “faith” is the number one in Christianity, then “love” (or loving your neighbor, or “good works”, etc.) is a close second. And even beyond that it is implicit in much of the Bible that faith alone will not get you there. Doing good, being a good person, is a necessary part of the equation.
Now we can argue about whether faith or good works is more important. But that’s not really the point here, is it? You just want to state as fact that faith is the only means to salvation, therefore Christians (according to your view of the Bible) aren’t required to be good people. That just ain’t so.
Here are some sites for ya:
Matthew 25: 31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
etc.
James 2: 24
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Luke 7:25-37
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
etc.
Matthew 16: 27
*27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. *
Mark 12: 32-34
*32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.*
Luke 19: 8-9
*8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.*
Now you can certainly say that those who condemn homosexuality as evil are not being very loving. I would agree with you, and in my opinion, they aren’t true Christians. But to lump us all together only serves to make you look just as bigoted and close-minded – and unloving – as them.
No,. you just don’t get the point. Christians believe in obeying power, and far less in inculcating virtue. The Bible emphasizes obedience, not in practicing goodness or enjoining acts of virtue. Compare it with Islam, which specifically commands its followers to give to charity as one of the 5 Pillars of Faith.
Moreover, one can do any amount of evil, repent on one’s deatrhbed, and get into Heaven after enjoying a thrillfilled life of vice. Where’s the virtue?
It’s this kind of blatant dishonesty that annoys me. I never called Christians “schmucks,” and it demonstrates that people who can’t understand the theological issues prefer to cloud the discussion instead.
I assure you, I’m not being dishonest. Your claims, however, paint Christians as schmucks. Do you honestly think your rhetoric puts them in a good light? Not all Christians have the same theology, and not all see the world the same way.
But if you’re taking my comments as hostile and dishonest, I suppose it’s time for me to drop out of this, as I’ve done my best to be respectful.
See, gobear, where you went wrong was singling out one particular faith. If you cover the bases and loudly proclaim they all suck, then instead of being labeled something as pedestrian as a bigot, you can join the few, the proud, the incorrigible misanthropic cranks!
That may be, but the fact that you seem to take every opportunity to make disparging comments about Christianity may be the reason that many question your integrity on the matter. You seem to think that your “understanding” of religion disallows any debate; and that whatever damage that has been done to you in the past by some fucked-up “Christians” gives you the right to be prick.
Anyway, I’m not sure if you’ll respond to my previous post, but I’ll tell you this: from the beginning of our little piss-fest (way back when) it was always your hypocrisy and holier-than-thou attitude about bashing Christianity that got under my skin. I imagine it’s the same thing about some Christians that pisses you off. But you must know that you’re only stooping to their level by behaving in such a manner.
Okay, I don’t know which Bible you’ve been reading, but my version reads:
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. (Luke 6:27-8)
All in all, gobear, I’m mostly sad for you that you have so much anger and hate in you that you feel the need to lash out.
Because Catholics have been so oppressed of late…
You haven’t covered “Christians do not believe in love” or “control without limits.” I understand the faith vs. obedience distinction. You may know, but I’ll restate for the record: I’m not terribly theistic. I simply think these generalizations are disingenuous. I don’t like them any better when the target is Islam, Hinduism, etc. Not that you would ever attack those beliefs.
The lower quote isn’t me. I know it wasn’t intentional, but it looks misattributed.
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Speaking as one who played the part of Offended Party in previous episodes, I have to say that I read your posts much like someone watching a horror movie, screaming at the screen “Don’t go into the basement!” You don’t have to be a Prophet to see how these things always turn out. I reference you to the Book of Waverly, where he predicted everything exactly as it’s going to happen, right down to Polycarp’s gobear-enabling defense, somebody bringing up homosexuality, and the entreaties to change “Christians” to “some Christians” as if that made everything better.
Eh. The difference, Hamish, is that you know when to quit. You don’t feel the need to evangelize atheism at every opportunity, then tell people that they’re ignorant and need to study more when they don’t reach the same conclusions as you.