Um, those seem to be a member of that religion, not requirements not to burn in Hell.
Read “Those seem to be requirements to be a member…”
Of course, as I understand it, Judaism doesn’t actually have much in the way of salvation to begin with.
I don’t think that cite particularly backs up your assertion that Catholics believe you are saved by faith alone. However, I grant you that if we were to duel with Bible quotes from the New Testament, which I am not particularly good at nor wont to do now, it would come down pretty much in favor of faith alone. But when have Christian sects limited themselves to the Bible? 
Faith, to be certain, is more important than works IME as one with exposure to Catholic sermons, and the idea of deathbed salvation is certainly not ruled out, because as it’s said, no one knows who is really going to Heaven. And you just don’t hear the heavy emphasis on sudden conversion and deathbed revelations that pervades the more fundamentalist sects of Christianity.
I dispute your point about the whole of Christianity relying on a Get Out of Hell Free card to mask a life of otherwise unadulterated evil.
It’s been awhile since my Catechism but is it not true that, while again no one knows what is required to attain salvation, in order to get in good standing with the offical doctrine of the Church one must not only repent but also attempt to make good the sin? Whereas some persuasions, your sin is washed away with repentance.
No shit! Wasn’t that pretty much the entire point of my post to leander? If you ever backed down, or in fact showed any signs whatsoever that you actually listened to people instead of asserting your own position and calling people who don’t agree with you stupid, then you wouldn’t keep getting drawn into the same argument over and over again.
Please. That’s some weak-ass shit, even for you. “They started it! You people do it all the time! I was just talkin’ is all; it didn’t mean nothing! I’ve got my rights!” You’re an adult, gobear. Fucking act like one, and treat us like adults, too. That crap may work fine against simple-minded fundamentalists who come in trying to get creationism taught as science or condemn “alternative lifestyles,” but you know damn well you’re talking to intelligent people who’ve put thought into their beliefs. And you know damn well that I don’t go around forcing my faith on anyone.
The first time I got pulled into that nonsense, I just went away thinking that it was all just sputtering vitriol from someone with a chip on his shoulder about Christianity, so I let it lie. Now, after seeing you get pulled into the same ego-masturbation disguised as a theological debate another time, I think you’re deliberately Christian-baiting. You’ve been grinding that axe for so long, you’ve worn it down to nothing. And every single time you get called on it, you respond by saying that it’s entitled because of all the persecution you’ve suffered from Christians. And you’re calling me a martyr?
Whenever you go quoting your mis-interpreted scripture and “saluting” others who quote it back at you, I’m reminded of the dialogue in A Fish Called Wanda: “Apes don’t read philosophy.” “Yes they do, Otto, they just don’t understand it.”
Proverbs 14:15: The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going. (Blind adherence to words without understanding the meaning of those words is foolish.)
Luke 6:31: And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. (The Golden Rule. Or, if it bothers you so much to hear Christians evangelize at any possible opportunity, and it’s a case of their “forcing their faith on you,” why is it acceptable for you to evangelize your atheism?)
Proverbs 14:16: A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident. (Fools rage on and never learn from their mistakes.)
1 Corinthians 8:1-2: Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. (You’re not as smart as you think you are. Benevolence and love towards other people make you a much stronger person than any knowledge you claim to have.)
Proverbs 17:28: Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. (We heard you the first thousand times you made some blatantly antagonistic comment about Christianity and got called on it.)
I do find it somewhat ironic that in my church, the verses that you quote were used to admonish those who do pretty much exactly what you’re doing – quoting Bible scripture and claiming that that means you “get it.” Except when I heard them, they were directed at those who go to church every Sunday and Wednesday, can recite scripture back to front, but still don’t accept the teachings of Christ in their hearts. But if you want to get into the whole so-called “debate” about whether virtue matters for salvation, the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible does a much better job of collecting the contradictory verses that you all seem to love.
Quoting Scripture is a tool of the overly pedantic, or the weak-minded who can’t think for themselves. The only need to quote from it is if it makes a point really well, which it seldom does, because either the language is so archaic as to be clumsy, or there’s another passage which can be interpreted to be directly contradictory to the one you’re trying to make.
All I know is that I’m pretty damn tired of people – both Christian and atheist – telling me that their interpretation is the right one and I’m either going to hell or I’m self-deluded and stupid, or both. There are plenty of us who have little difficulty reconciling religious belief with science, with homosexuality (I said it about me, gobear, so don’t get all uptight), or with just plain not being a jerk. So many of us, in fact, that I wish people would just fucking show some sense instead of trying to impose their simple-minded worldviews on everyone else.
Yeah, we’ve heard that complaint before, too. Dude, maybe you should try branching out a little. Like, don’t tell everyone how much gay sex you had with your boyfriend last weekend. And don’t end flamewars by offering people blowjobs, even if it’s meant cordially. There are a lot of people on the SDMB, and we don’t have a lot to go on here. “The gay guy who hates Christians” doesn’t do a whole lot to set you apart. matt_mcl has the whole Canadian thing going on, spectrum’s the screaming militant one, and Otto’s working on the poker connection. Personally, I haven’t decided whether to work the comic books & videogame angle, or go more for the Bible-Thumping Homo thing.
Or if you do, at least upload the videos.
[sub]I can’t believe SolfreakingGrundy elicited this response based on the perceived animosity I thought he had for me, or has. Whatever.[/sub]
Go for the straight-man-that-had-even-a-moment-of-doubt-if-he-is-honest vote. You’ll be running the world in about, oh, a week. 
Of course, with salvation from faith theologies, it’s possible that God reveals himself after you die and then you get the choice. I think fundies don’t want to say that though, because they don’t know for sure and would rather err on the side of caution than have people end up in hell. I think there are a lot of fundies who could be more flexible in their beliefs, but stick to what they know because they don’t want to lead others astray.
And I apparently missed gobear’s “retract my statement” post from the earlier thread, even though it was directly quoted in the OP of this one. So I retract my bitching at him for never backing down and bringing it up where it’s inappropriate. I still think he’d be better off avoiding the hassle altogether, but. Eh. To each his own.
I really, sincerely don’t want to derail a thread that’s already making grinding noises and sending sparks flying all over the Pit, and I don’t want to make this “ALL ABOUT ME,” but… I can’t parse that. As in, I can’t tell what it means, at all.
These are requirements to be Jewish or Muslim. They are not requirements to go to Heaven. That’s the difference. Most other religions do not say that you have to be a member of that religion to go to Heaven.
It’s a bit cryptic to me, too, but I think he’s telling you to go into politics.
But there is no side of caution. Pascal’s Wager is a false dichotomy. There is no safe choice. There are infinite choices which all have equal risk. God might hate Christianity and love tree worshippers. In that case, Christian fundamentalists would be leading people astray. There is no way to know.
For an athiest/agnostic’s perspective, I agree with you. Some christians, however, would feel that being cautious would go with what they’ve always been taught and is what mainstream christian culture believes. For them, the stricter interpretation is safer.
They’d be afraid to tell you that you don’t have to believe in Jesus before you die, because they don’t know for sure. From their point of view, saying that you have to believe in Jesus before you die is playing it safe because it’s not easy to find places that directly contradict it in the bible and that’s what their pastors and James Dobson and their radio stations tell them.
You might not know this, but there is a lot of comfort in being a fundamentalist christian. You have churches and the christian media going along with you, you have tons and tons of books, and you really feel that you are all right with God.
I’ve grown up in that culture, and am now just starting to become a more liberal christian. It’s not an easy change to make, and all of the sudden it isn’t so easy.
I can’t even read the bible anymore because it’s too confusing. First I have to read this other book called “How To Read The Bible For All Its Worth” before I even try.
My point is that it’s hard for christians to step outside their comfort zones, and that’s why some have such strict theological beliefs.
Sorry, I completely missed your point. That should have been rather obvious to me! :smack:
You are correct, of course. In terms of salvation, Christianity is somewhat unique in regards to faith. I was thinking you were talking of religions in general terms.
So your point about it being an “amoral condition” makes far greater sense. Personally, I don’t see it as a requirement – that is, I don’t think salvation is exclusive to Christians. But then, I’m clearly not a very good one. 
Ah, I misunderstood your unqualified use of the word “requirement.” Apologies.
Gobear,
I am greatly saddened to know that I cannot believe in love. I want to love, although I know my spirit fall short of the example I have chosen, in love. I try, when I know that I have failed to make amends.
How can I do that, with you? What act of mine could atone for the absence of love you see in me? For I am a Christian, and if Christians believe only in power, without virtue, then I too must be spewing my hatred over you. I am sorry. What path would you have me take?
If I have tried to force my faith down your throat, it was unintended. I don’t even remember offering you my faith at all. I believe that faith is important, in fact one of the three things my Lord says endure. But, even He, in whom I am to have faith set it below love, which He called the greatest of all things. It is only that one thing I wish to offer.
I don’t do dueling verses. I would recommend, rather that you not read the bible at all, anymore. It seems to be quite discomforting to you. It seems to make you angry, and to make you believe that I hate you. I do not. I think that you know some people do, and of those, some are Christians. I don’t follow Christians. I don’t ask you to follow me.
I ask only that you tell me what you want from me. Not me, in a general sense, but me personally. What amends would you have for the absence of love you have perceived in me? For whether you believe it or not, the perception you have that I do not believe in love distresses me, and is in my mind a reflection of a sin on my part.
Tris
Yeah, but not in a nice way, you know?
Learn to read, son. I’ll say it again for you:
Christians are on TV, in politics, at public ceremonies, atheists are not. It’s not about persecution,but about access. I’ll say it one more time because you really seem not to get this point.
Christians get far, far more access to communicate their beliefs than do secular atheists, but let one obstreperous atheist talk shit about the dominant religion, you act persecuted, as if the lions are at the door.
Quoting Scripture is citing authority for one’s statements. I have no idea what church you attend, but it can’t be much if a Christian church if it doesn’t recognize the primacy of the Bible and its teachings. As for the contradictory nature of the beast, hey, mayvbe you’ll wake up and realize that while the Bible is the authority for debate on Christian doctrine, it’s just a book, after all.
Stop trying the “but I’m nice,” argument. You are nice, but that is no reply to the problems I have with the Christian religion. There are nice Marxists, but their politics are still loathsome; there are nice Republicans, but they still follow a lying warmonger. I’m sure there are members of al Qaeda who are probably swell fellas, but I’m still not going to send them any donations based on niceness.
One thing that struck me among the many disappointed applicants for American Idol was the common reply when the judges rejected them, “But I’m a good person!” So? That has no bearing on their ability to sing. Same principle here. Your being a decent person has no bearing on the doctrines taught by Christianity and its fan club.
When the atheists outnumber the theists, I expect you’ll see the reverse.
And on that day, I will still disagree with them, but I’ll support their right to be heard and to be equal in our society.