Ignoring the reference to hell, this christian is in 100% agreement. We are saved by power, not our own virtue. If I’ve understood my scriptural readings correctly, salvation through virtue would require perfection that none of us has the power to claim. Salvation is granted to us through faith which all of us will attain each in our own time. Passages in both the new and old testaments refer to the eventual “bowing of knees” before God by everyone.
However our good conduct with respect to God and our neighbour is exhorted by our leader and is a manifestation of our faith. Faith without works is dead.
Why would it require perfection. How about just not being an axe murderer? Why isn’t being a decent but imperfect person sufficient?
Exceptvfor the untold billions who don’t.
Not me. And not billions of others who have already died.
As long as faith is required, the conditions are unjust.
While the direction that the thread has taken is interesting and I have some things I can say, I’m going to jump back in time a bit.
There’s an example of a stupid generalization. I have not seen Solgrundy act persecuted at all. You seem to think that all christians are the same.
Stop acting like you know what christianity is more than christians do. You obviously do not. You seem to think that you can judge what is more christian. You can not. You act like the big authority on christianity who can say what others believe. You are not.
What you are is a victim of your own prejudice. Plain and simple. You’re a victim because it had made you foolish.
Hey, existentialists: you believe in God. Why? Because all the existentialists I’ve met believe in God, and that one play is called Waiting for Godot.
How is telling one person he is acting persecuted a generalization? As for the access Christians have to media, that’s a fact. Don’t use the word “generalization” if you don’t know what it means.
Then you didn’t read his posts.
Yes, I do. I certainly know Church history, Scripture, and Patristic writings better than most of them.
No, you just don’t like hearing a harsh voice that doesn’t fall for your mythology.
I apologize–that last post was over the top even for me.
Unless the mods deleted a post, I see nothing to apologize for in the previous couple of posts from you. SolGrundy does seem to be very sensitive about and criticism of Christianity, especially coming from you. It’s obvious that your grasp of scripture is better than many others who spout platitudes about how we’re all sinners and deserve to go to hell but God loves us and sent his son to die for us.
Over the top would have been attacking over the dumb pun in Godot.
Poly, if you believe that Gobear was reflectively pointing out a discrepancy between Jesus’ message and some of the more ‘Catholic’ interpretations of scripture, and not impugning all Christians because he enjoys generalizations, then you are forbearing to a fault. And I mean that literally.
Matthew, XIII
“41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
The words of Jesus, hisself. What am I missing here.
Matthew, XIII
“41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
The words of Jesus, hisself. What am I missing here?
You are missing the fact that Diogenes is woefully ignorant when it comes to the Bible, yet he loves to spout off his misunderstandings as fact.
Nothing there suggests it’s an eternal dimension of torture for the unchosen.
Uh, actually I’d consider Diogenes to be one of the most knowledgable dopers when it comes to all things biblical, and I think his lack of both Christian faith and asshole atheism makes him a bit more trustworthy the others who are also knowledgable.
Impugning how, exactly? It’s a fucking syllogism:
A is a Christian
Christians believe in salvation through submitting to Jesus, and not by works.
A believes in salvation through submitting to Jesus, and not by works.
The trouble is that you seem to have the idea that “Christian” is just a synonym for “nice person” and not a definition of a certain set of beliefs. Believe me, if I had wanted to “impugn” Christians, your ears would have been scorched by now.
Well, come on then. This is the Pit. Don’t hold back.
A is an American.
Americans think George W Bush is a better leader then John Kerry.
A thinks George W Bush is a better leader then John Kerry.
Why might this be? Because he disagrees with you? I know a fair amount about Biblical criticism, from both the conservative and the form-critical approaches, and Diogenes reports the consensus views of the more scholarly higher critics. When I took him to task a while ago for apparently reporting scholarly-consensus informed opinion as fact, he indicated he had not intended the implication and resolved to be clearer in future.
I’d like to see what gobear has to say about how I (perhaps mis-)read his posts before I respond to this other than with this message.
You’re missing that it’s a reference to Gehenna, not to hell. You’re also missing a knowledge of 1st century Jewish eschatology.
In the Jewish view of the endtimes, everybody was going to be resurrected and judged on the last day. The good people would get eternal lifen and the bad people would be anihilated in Gehenna - the valley of Hinnon - which was a garbage dump southwest of Jerusalem. It was a disposal site for animal carcasses and sometimes the bodies of criminals. People kept fires burning to try to destroy the rotting corpses and get rid of the smell. It was also thought to have once been a site of human sacrifice for ancient Canaanites and so was considered an unholy, ignoble place to have one’s body disposed of. This valley full of burning piles of garbage and carcasses became the supposed site where the unrighteous would be destroyed (destroyed, not eternally punished) on judgement day.
There are several times in Matthew where Jesus specifically names Gehenna and all of these instances are often incorrectly translated as “Hell” in English Bibles. There was no such concept as an eternal Hell in 1st century Judaism and there is no such concept in the Bible.
Any time Psycho Pirate wants to tell me what I’m wrong about is just fine with me.
Thank you. My point exactly. Not exactly modus tollens, is it?
Oh no!! Please, please, Mr. Gobear, don’t hit me with the full force of your ire.
[sub]Odd though, that you have so much ear scorching wrath for someone merely interested in making theological point…[/sub]