This is a terrific point. However, for some reason I feel it necessary to point out that kids also sing, “Here Comes Santa Clause” and “Big Rock Candy Mountain” but they don’t necessarily grow up believing there’s a Santa Claus Lane or that bulldogs can grow rubber teeth.
L
In my mind the simple answer to this is, what if the class were forced to sing “Brahma bless America”
A rule of thumb I tend to follow is to imagine how people would react if a minority viewpoint were expressed, instead of a majority one. Most people tend to feel like, “anti-religion zealots get their panties in a bunch” about stuff like this, but put yourself in the shoes of a Hindu,Wiccan,Muslim that immigrated to this country because we supposedly have religious freedom, only to find out that their child either has to sing Christian hymns in a public school or sit out and be singled out you can see why people get offended.
I’m sure somebody will say “Love it or leave it” but we tell immigrants how free we are, I should hope that isn’t a lie.
And on preview:
Then why not sing the national anthem? Somebody wanted God in there.
Why not sing “Heat of the Moment”? And why, if the fanatical religious right, which is always behind these kind of things, wanted God in there, did the entire holiday program seem devoid of references to God before this one song? Not a conspiracy, one freaking song chosen for it’s emotion (read: not religious) content.
Ahem, with a firm grasp of the obvious, I would just like to point out that it was a Christmas concert, and they sung songs such as “A new world christmas”. God is already all over the place here - not just in “God bless America”.
I suppose to “protect” the rights of the non-christians they could have sanitized all religous references and called it something like a holiday concert. Wait, nope. That won’t work. “Holiday” implies “holy day”. They’d have to call it “Winter concert” and sing nothing but songs about snow. No trees, stars, or red and green decorations either. Santa Claus? nope, implies a Christian holiday ("saint Nick and all). Menoras would be out too.
Schools can’t even reference a christian “holy day” with the ultra-liberals’ definition of seperation of Church and State. It would have to be just a bunch of kids singing about snow.
Well, okay then. In order to be totally fair—and not to be accused of being left- or right-wing!—how’s about we have the kids sing those Christmas carols, and also find them some songs or chants or prayers extolling Islam, Buddhism, Wicca, Judaism, et. al., to sing? Along with one rousing chorus or two of any song we can find proclaiming that there IS no God?
Surely no parent could object to THAT, in the spirit of fair play?
In view of George’s recent passing, how about “My Sweet Lord,” Eve?
Seriously, it occurs to me that there is a distinction being drawn that might not be necessary. We live in a nation with historically Christian majorities, in a culture shaped by Christianity. (Quick, name the four holidays most commonly honored, e.g., by businesses being closed that day.)
It has never seemed to me, and I do try to keep my religious views and my constitutional views properly compartmentalized, that making opportunity for activities related to a commonly celebrated holiday that is derived from a religious event is not ipso facto any sort of endorsement of it.
A kids’ program involving learning Christmas carols is no more imposition of a belief on the chorus members than is the teaching of Schubert’s Ave Maria or Mozart’s Ave Verum Corpus the imposition of Catholicism on us Methodist kids (as I was at the time) – it’s a piece of music, part of our cultural heritage, that has a religious meaning to some people, though not to me (at the time). I suspect the average kid made to learn “Silent Night” or “Away in a Manger” invests no more meaning in it than in “Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer.”
I could be wrong. And I do understand the concerns of a parent or set of parents in the minority among supposed believers. But it does seem to have a bit of tempest-in-the-teapot proportions to me. (Of course, “slippery slopes” usually do to some people, so I see that point too.)
There is a good episode of South Park related to this. The non-Christian people in the town get in an uproar because the school Christmas play is so biased on Christianity. Well, at the end, they’ve tried to make it so much that everyone would like it, that the play just turned out being something that made no sense. It was funny.
The episode just shows what happens if you try to get too non-secular.
DavidB writes:
I’m not sure who they think they are, but I might tend to think they are prone to see a conspiracy to brainwash with religion in a harmless little song.
and…
Nice personal attack David…just like the old days 'eh? You don’t really want the GD mods to see stuff like this.
Anyway…
I’m not equating Dubya to schoolchildren…I’m equating him to the music teacher. I’m pretty sure that Dubya has said the words “God Bless America” in a Presidential speech. The music teacher chose the song “God Bless America” for the program. Both parties are equally guilty of imposing their choice on others. The music teacher subjected the children and the audience to the words. Dubya subjected the entire viewing nation to the words. The only hairs to split are that they teacher encouraged the children to say the words themselves. OTOH, Dubya is more influential and his audience was much larger (including of course, many children).
Get it?
rushtopher wrote:
Ever seen the 4th verse of the U.S. National Anthem? One of its lines is “In God is our trust.”
vanilla said:
Oh, well, if you can’t imagine it, then we’ll just ignore it, eh? As several people have already said, I don’t think the Constitutionality of an action is based on whether you think it’s traumatizing.
Hamlet said:
I’m sorry to hear you are unable to see the obvious. They were singing a song about a deity blessing the country. You know, the Taliban thought (their) God blessed their country, too.
Yes, it’s a song, but once is exactly once too often.
The unit of government (the school) is having children sing about God. Seems to be religion to me. I’d love to know how singing about God giving out blessings isn’t religious.
Like I said, I have a problem understanding how having these kids singing about a deity handing out blessings is not religious. Perhaps you have a different idea of “religion” than I do.
Sure it does – one that has a god. That excludes those who do not believe in any god and those who believe in other gods (it wasn’t “Vishnu bless America,” after all).
It served a secular purpose to sing about God? Uh huh…
Krispy Original said:
The conspiracy king accuses other people of being prone to see a conspiracy? That’s rich!
Even after all this time, you still don’t understand the rules of this place? Or are you just pretending so you can try to get a jab in at me? Nah, you’d never do that.
The difference is that Bush didn’t take a bunch of kids over whom he has direct influence and have them sing a song about God. Do I like it when he gets up on his presidential soapbox and talks about God blessing the country? Hell no. Do I think it’s unconstitutional? No. He does other stuff that falls into that category, but simply talking about it isn’t one of them. However, a school having children sing about God sure looks that way to me.
You failed to answer the question!
No one said it wasn’t religious, just that it wasn’t establishing a religion.
Sheesh :eek:
Yeah, I can see the humor in that 
, but it doesn’t make it any less true that Freedom From Religion Zealots see religious brainwashing conspiracy.
It is my goal and desire to participate without giving or receiving personal attacks. I allowed you to pull my strings with:
The way I read it, there is a personal insult and a misrepresentation of my stance in that sentence. I shouldn’t have responded to that, but I did. Sorry.
Now back to our discussion:
We will probably have to agree to disagree David.
I feel that if our society sanctions our President’s official references and endorsements of God in relation to our nation, then it would be unjust for that same society to hold the grade school music teacher to a different standard. I can’t see a measurable difference between the religious influence of the words and actions of the two. Can you or anyone else measure the discomfort level of the 10 year old watching a Presidential speech when he hears Dubya’s enthusiastic references to God? …and then compare them to measured discomfort levels of that same 10 year old in reaction to singing God Bless America in the school program?
Heck, I can’t even tell you the name of my grade school music teacher…but I can tell you that I grew up in public schools in an atmosphere of patriotism and respect for our President. My young, impressionable mind was much more likely to be influenced by our President’s words than my music teacher’s songs.
I wonder if some school classrooms still break out the TV for daytime Presidential addresses like they did in my childhood. I wonder if teachers these days force the students to watch a tape recording of a Presidential speech in the classroom? Wow. What a catastrophe. The President of the United States pumping God directly into our classrooms!
So yeah, let’s go after the music teacher for her little song.
Right. Round up a posse boys!