I’d thought of putting this in GQ, but maybe its a debate.
Last night, my son (in third grade) had his first & third graders christmas concert.
It was quite different from mine as a youngster.
No Chrsitmas songs I’d ever heard.
They ahd songs like Its A New World Christmas, had kids come up throughout and make statements (such as we are destroying the earth, lets be nicer to it)!
At the end, they sange God Bless America.
Of course, my first thought was Uh Oh. i hope no ACLU members are here.
Was that okay for them to do?
I mean legally, I thought it was great, but then again, I’m a christian.
shrug Unless the entire thing was pervasively Christian it’s probably not really a big deal. If you’re just talking about singing “God Bless America”–well, I might not be thrilled with the idea, not being a Christian, but… c’mon, it’s trivial. The Constitutionality of it is debatable of course, and I myself hold pretty hard-line views on keeping religion and government seperate, but getting upset about every last little thing would just be silly. The song in question is I think identified more with patriotism than religion anyhow.
Now if they were singing hymns or something, that I might have a problem with…
If Bush is allowed to talk about God blessing this and that as I’ve heard on the news, why can’t school kids?
{Yes I’m being very simplistic, I have no idea of the letter of the law nor the way in which it is in fact applied)
Nobody has the resources to go after the President, but third grade elementary classes are much easier game. Predators always go for the weak, the young, and the elderly after all.
Are you calling the ACLU predators?
I would also say it depends on the class and what they’re doing…like in a high school chorus, you probably have a lot more religious themed music, because that would be the classics and the like?
Right before they did the song (at the end of the show) they mentioned the people who ahd died Sept. 11th and did the song “for them”, as it were.
They also asked us to stand.
vanilla wrote:
Were these statements made by the kids from their own opinions, or were they just reciting “set pieces” about ooh-look-we’re-destroying-the-Earth that had nothing to do with their personal beliefs?
If the latter, that worries me a lot more than the singing of “God Bless America” (and I’m an atheist!).
It seemed like the lines were scripted, as the kids ahd some trouble with some words.
“Technology has made the world a different place.”
And?
It was almost like proselityzing.
I know I did not spell that correctly.
I’m not so sure that singing “God Bless America” is so trivial. You have to keep in mind that every single grade 3 child will now certainly have the impression [however vague or ambiguos] that God does belong in the classroom if it is also combined with patriotism.
Furthermore, it tells the children that America is God blessed which
[ul]
[li]implies that God is real[/li][li]implies that the American way of life is blessed by God, and therefore must be correct[/li][/ul]
The idea of scripted lines does sound kinda scary…sort of like brainwashing, but then again, there is a lot of brainwashing in education(history is a set of lies agreed upon by those in power).
P.S.Is there a thread anywhere that does go after the president for saying God Bless America?
Public school or private school Vanilla?
If your son attends a private school, then I don’t see as how the ACLU or others have any way to stick their nose in.
If he attends a public school, then of course some “freedom from religion” zealot could get their panties in a bunch and make a scene.
But hey, if the President can get away with “God bless America” statements, then it seems to me the grade school music teacher is in the clear.
I think it would be ok as long as the kids weren’t forced to sing it. I mean, what if one of the kids is a wiccan or a hindu, and he doesn’t want to sing about god? They shouldn’t force him/her too. But, of course at that level, i don’t think it really matters. To them, whatever you say is the truth. 
Krispy Original said:
Yeah, those damned zealots always trying to protect our rights! Who the hell do they think they are?
It figures that in your simplistic world, the president would be equated to schoolchildren (well, okay, with W it is kind of hard to draw a distinction). The president is, of course, allowed to voice his own opinions. If he makes those the opinion of the government, that is quite a different matter. A public school having children sing “God Bless America,” however, is making it the opinion of a unit of government. And it’s even worse because it uses children to do it.
Yes, its a public school.
But I can’t imagine any child being traumatized because of it.
I recall many school concerts. I barely paid attention to the Words of the songs.
Any cites of kids being ruined the rest of their lives because someone mentioned God in school?
So this is the legal ‘test’ as opposed to whether it violates the Constitution?
" . . . every single grade 3 child will now certainly have the impression . . . that God does belong in the classroom if it is also combined with patriotism. Furthermore, it tells the children that America is God blessed . . . "
Eh, I dunno. Only the weak-minded ones. I grew up singing Xmas songs and “God Bless America” and all kinds of religious stuff in school, and I’m as big an atheist as you can find.
My high school renamed the Christmas Concert the “holiday concert” in recent years. The music directors were also informed to play a lot more secular music to the extent of being forced to justify virtually any use of Christian songs. Perhaps it started out as well intentioned, but it’s hard to go through the canon of great choral classics without running into a whole bunch of Christianity.
yeah, I don’t think it would affect me either, cause I feel that I am “strong minded”, but there are kids who will be affected (the “weak minded ones”).
If you stole $50 from me, it wouldn’t ruin the rest of my life, either. So I should just let you do it?
I find it quite the stretch that having kids sing “God Bless America” in a one-time holiday program, in tribute to the victims of September 11th is an “opinion of a unit of government.” It’s a freakin song, not a mind-control “The only God is the Protestant Christian God, and he is Great!” chant, repeated every day.
The legal standard is [generally] whether or not the Government Action in this case, having the kids sing a song with (God forbid … [sub]I mean, heaven forbid … I mean, well you know)[/sub] “God” in it, is an “establishment of religion.” That seems to mean different things to different Supreme Court judges, which is why you get 3 different plurality opinions (at least) in most of the modern school prayer/Holiday display cases.
You can find as many interpretations of the establishment clause as you can Supreme Court judges. O’Connor has developed a so-called “endorsement test” which would limits religious speech if it is not intended or if it also sends a mesasage of pluralism and freedom to choose one’s own beliefs. You also have a “coercion test” which allows religious content unless it directly or indirectly coerces people to believe in any religion or it’s exercise. Rhenquist and Scalia tend to flock to this one. Hell, you can also use the old school Lemon test, the “secular purpose” test, or throw out all the tests. (depending on which USSC case you want to rely on.) It’s a messy area of law.
Personally, I have a problem understanding how having these kids sing “God Bless America” as a tribute to victims after what sounds like an entire program devoid of religious references, amounts to “establishing a religion.” It doesn’t endorse a particular religion (or non-religion), the kid’s aren’t coerced to believe in anything, and it clearly served a secular purpose. But hey, that’s just me.