God-Damned mother-effing coward Spaniards.

Muad’Dib, you are a fucking idiot. And a very ignorant idiot at that. Anyone who says the Spanish people caved in to the threat of terrorism is an idiot and has not a clue or understanding of what has been happening in Spain.

After the terrorist attacks of 9/11/2001 I have seen the hysteria of the American government and many Americans which has led to awful things which are very contrary to what America stands for. I remember the xenophobia which led to many foreigners being rounded up and imprisoned on the flimsiest of excuses. I remember the photos of families walking in the snow fleeing to Canada in fear of the US government. I remember the gross abuses still taking place in Guantanamo. The invasion of Iraq. . . all caused by an attack of hysteria and loss of rationality and common sense.

Spain has been dealing with ETA terrorists for decades and has never been soft or capitulated. The threat of terrorists has been much greater in Spain than it ever was in the USA and yet common sense and restraint have always reigned. The different governments have been tough in dealing with terrorists and have had the unequivocal support of the Spanish people in this approach. There has been no support ever for the notion of negotiating or capitulating. Anyone who calls the Spanish people cowards when it comes to terrorism is talking out of his ass and does not have the least information. As the recent Carod affair proves, in Spain accusing a party of being soft on terrorism or of being willing to compromise or negotiate would make it lose pretty much any support it had. Anyone who says the Spanish gave in out of fear please explain why they have stood firm against ETA for decades. But the Spanish people have the maturity and calmness to understand that hysteria will only make things worse and they have decided it is not a good idea to grant the government special police powers or to abridge legal guarantees or human rights. The fight against terrorism has to be done with respect for human rights and for the rule of law and when the socialist government was caught fighting the terrorists using illegal means the Spanish people kicked them out of office. I find this admirable and the USA could learn a bit from Spain.

The recent bombings here in Madrid have been traumatizing and the city and country are still in shock. Many people are still missing and many bodies have not yet been identified. You just cannot imagine the somber atmosphere at the train station where it happened, in the morgue, the hospitals.

And yet, the response so far has been quite different from what I saw in America. No xenophobia, no hysteria, no calls for final solutions, just sadness and awareness that calmness is what is needed over anything else. Rather than any xenophobic measures the government expressed the goodwill of the Spanish people to those of all nationalities who had been victims, many of which were illegal aliens. The government immediately decreed that anyone who was a victim or a relative of a victim, dead or injured, would be granted Spanish citizenship automatically upon requesting it and offered help in repatriating bodies and offering help for travel etc.

I have yet to see any editorials or commentators saying anything against foreigners or Muslims. Just like 9/11 brought out the worst of prejudiced Americans this would be the time for the same thing to happen in Spain and yet it has not happened. Nobody is proposing any measures against aliens and the mood is that it would not make the country safer anyway. No politician has expressed any support for any measures that resemble anything like what the USA has been doing. The measured response is that the police should continue to do their job in preventing crimes and in catching criminals. Nobody is proposing not respecting due process or human rights. The police legally have five days to charge the suspects and nobody is proposing suspending that. The suspects will be charged and presented before a judge before the five days are over. Nobody is clamoring for special knee-jerk measures. It takes maturity to act rationally in times like this. The easy thing is to give in to hysteria and start thrashing in all directions. So far and as a whole the Spanish people are proving a maturity under the circumstances which many Americans lacked and I am very proud of that.

In all the years I lived abroad I had become quite distanced from Spanish events and politics and never voted. As the years went by I felt I was losing the connection. Now I am back in Madrid and I made it a point to vote for the first time in many years and it was all about a single issue: Iraq. The Spanish people were against supporting the invasion and occupation of Iraq and so was I. Normally I would not have voted because, as I say, in general I do not feel strongly about events in Spain but the issue of Iraq was enough to get me to vote. I am nominally a Spanish national and the government of Spain was supporting an invasion and occupation which had cost thousands of innocent Iraqi lives. Not in my name. No way.

On economic issues I am as conservative as they come. A small company I work for derives most of its income from selling imported datacom equipment to the Spanish government and a change of government meant huge losses as people changed, contracts were delayed or cancelled etc. Economically I have every interest in the government staying in power and I would have looked the other way if it were a lesser issue but this government has supported the killing of thousands of innocent Iraqis in my name. No way I can support that. Furthermore, they have caused Spain to be a target of terrorists and it is not cowardice but common sense which tells me it makes no sense to become a target for something which I oppose.

There was no valid reason to invade Iraq and kill thousands of their people. As far as I am concerned I have no quarrel with the people of Iraq and someone wants me to quarrel with them. Sorry. No can do. I feel the invasion was immoral and the Iraqis have every right to defend their homeland against the invaders. The fact that Al Qaeda feel the same way does not make it wrong. Al Qaeda use evil methods but that does not mean that anything and everything they would want is wrong, only that the terrorist methods they use are wrong. If I happen to agree with Al Qaeda that the USA should not have invaded Iraq, don’t blame me, blame the US government who invaded. The government of the USA shares with Al Qaeda the view that the ends justify the means, a view which I and the majority of the Spanish people do not share.

The Spanish people felt the invasion of Iraq was wrong and I do not see why they should be asked to take the side they feel is wrong and put their lives at risk for something which they believe is wrong. If the USA wants to dismiss the rest of the world and go around invading countries then let those who support that view supply the dead but don’t call cowards those countries which do not wish to make enemies with people with which they have no quarrel. I am sorry but the USA made a blunder when it invaded Iraq and I do not feel obligated to support blunders like that which cost thousands of innocent lives (and I include in that number the Americans dying in Iraq and who had no quarrel with the Iraqi people). If the USA feels it was the right thing to do in the face of the opposition of the rest of the world then the USA can fight on alone and without my support. The USA had the support of Spain and other nations when it went after Al Qaeda after 9/11. If now it happens that I agree with Al Qaeda that the USA should not have attacked Iraq, don’t blame me, blame the US government who created the circumstances.

When the bombs went off in Madrid the government tried to lie about what they knew and this enraged the Spanish people. They felt that in this moment of chaos the government was lying to protect itself. It was not looking out for the people but for itself. At the time when the people needed most to be reassured they felt betrayed and the backlash was inevitable. I think the government panicked and were really stupid in how they handled this. This issue is still a major matter of commentary in the media.

The PP had a terrible record of manipulating the government media in their favor and, in fact, had been condemned by the courts in the past to rectify false information they had put out regarding a general strike. Their manipulation of the media was blatant and inexcusable. (Although I expect the socialists will now come in and do 7/8 of the same.)

For the first time in many, many years I voted and I voted against the government who had so obviously acted against the will and the interests of the Spanish people and which was now lying to save its ass. I did this because I thought it was the right thing to do and I am glad as hell that they are gone. I believe the outgoing government would handle the economy and other issues better but my conscience does not allow me to put that over the thousands of innocent Iraqis who were killed and I had to vote against those who supported it.

I have to say that as the votes came in, their candidate, Rajoy, conceded the election graciously and unreservedly. He wanted to preempt any criticism saying this was playing into the hands of terrorists and he said clearly that he accepted that the Spanish people had unequivocally given their confidence to the socialists. It must have been a bitter moment and yet he handled himself like a statesman and I have to applaud that.

I will also note that the Spanish voters are not a monolithic group and the split between the two major parties is about even. The Socialists won 164 seats in the House of Representatives versus 148 for the PP but the PP won 102 seats in the Senate versus 81 for the Socialists. the Conservatives therefore have a higher percentage margin in the Senate than the Socialists have in the House. The country is quite divided in their votes. Fortunately I have not seen in Spain the level of vitriol and negative campaigning which is now, unfortunately, commonplace in the USA. I believe this is very bad for a country and both American parties would do well to put the country first and tone down the attacks. In Spain, fortunately, the level of discourse has not sunk so low and this in spite of Spaniards being quite vehement when it comes to politics. There is still a level of civility and respect in recognizing opponents as people with different ideas about what is good for the country rather than as evil beings. The political discourse in Spain is quite a few notches above that in America and you do not see the mudslinging and name calling.

The new Spanish government has said they will redirect the foreign policy more in line with other European countries rather than with the USA which seems like a reasonable position to take. No mention of coordinating with Al Qaeda or asking for their approval. The new Spanish government has said they will honor the commitment Spain had to be in Iraq until June 30. As the USA had promised a transfer to Iraqi authority after that date I cannot see why Spain is under any obligation to have troops under the orders of the USA any longer than that. Spain has stated that it would remain under UN mandate. I do not see how they can be blamed of cowardice. It is pretty clear to me this is a matter of principle. Spain has peace keeping troops in Bosnia and in Afghanistan and is willing to have them in Iraq under UN mandate. It just does not want to be part of something which they consider wrong. If the USA wants to act unilaterally then it can do just that but not expecting other countries to play lapdog. It is the policies of the US government which have eroded the support it had. The fact that I am willing to help you against someone who attacked you does not mean I am also willing to help you attack an innocent bystander.

The Spanish people are selflessly willing to risk their lives in humanitarian and peace-keeping missions and they are doing so as we speak. Spain is just not willing to be a participant in an unjustified aggression by the USA, a country which is now trampling over the most basic values of human dignity, due process and human rights. We are supposed to be fighting for those values, not against them. If the USA wants to resort to such methods then it should not expect any help from countries which hold those values in high esteem.

As I say, I have never really felt a strong connection with Spain or its affairs and I never thought I would say this but today I am very proud of the Spanish people and the way they are handling the situation. I am very proud to be one of them at this time. Now, if they would only stop smoking everywhere all the time. . . but that is a rant for some other time.

tumultuous applause

So why was the populace so outraged at the government pointing the finger at ETA. It would seem to me only logical that, until further developments proved otherwise, they would be the likely suspects.

Oh come on.

Don’t you realize the Spanish government actually helped SAVE thousands of Iraqi lives?

…and I don’t know where you heard about Americans becoming xenophobic and all after 9/11 either. The President and the Mayor went out of their way to reassure American Muslims that they were not to blame, and I never heard anybody in New York talk against them either. Please don’t believe your tabloids. We don’t force Arab-Americans in ghettos like they do in Europe.

I suppose I hallucinated the rise in anti-Muslim (and anti-anyone-who-looks-Muslim) incidents after 9-11?

What incidents?

Yes, you largely did. What very little of it that happened was from a few assholes that were just looking for an excuse. That entire period was full of people who kept saying “OMG when are the major hate crimes against the muslims going to start?!?!?!”, and they then went looking for them.

Because they kept that finger pointed at ETA even when they knew it was probably somebody else. What about this is so difficult to understand?

That people will keep believing this really shitty excuse for the actions of Spain’s voters.

Sailor? Great post there. Mega kudos to you. That must have taken 3 hours to write and proof read.

Thank you very much for a Spanish perspective on the matter. Thus far, I’ve been reading a generally “American only” perspective and it was proving to be somewhat “overbearing” at times.

In particular, I want to applaud your observations regarding negative campaigning. I personally reckon negative campaigning is all about exploiting the fear factor in voters, and it says little about a given candidates’ capacity for graciousness in my opinion.

Unfortunately, if we’re living in a culture we’re everybody shouts all the time, quietness becomes a quality which is easily dismissed as weakness.

So the Spanish population knew that the government knew that that it probably wasn’t ETA, but the government didn’t know that the population knew they knew so they didn’t know not to say what they really knew and therefore played into the hands of the opposition who knew what the governent really knew?

Thanks for the clarification. :rolleyes:

Oh spare us the condescension, please. Anyone who has the class to read all of Sailor’s magnificent post on this page will pick up exactly what happened in Spain, and how it unfolded.

Bottom line? There is a better-than-even chance the incumbent government was on the way out EVEN IF the Madrid bombings had never happened. We’ll never know of course because the Madrid bombings DID HAPPEN, and as such, Monday Morning Quarterbacks are now second guessing the collective mindset of the Spanish population.

However, the reality of this thread remains undiluted - namely, to take a cowardly snide potshot at Spain less than 1 week after such a tragedy reeks of odious sanctimonious righteousness.

Starving Artist, Muad’Dib, you guys can refuse to believe it if you want, but I was following the media reports from Spain constantly for the first couple days as well as communicating with friends of mine over there and this is precisely what happened. The Spanish government continued to insist that ETA were the most likely culprits even as the evidence to the contrary piled up. It was obvious to me what was going on (and I posted about it in the MPSIMS thread) the day before the election. You guys just don’t want to see it.

ruadh: Well, obviously, it’s all a well-orchestrated LIE, because they either want to cover their extreme cowardice in their complete and utter surrender to terrorists, or else they don’t even realize that’s what they’re doing on a Freudian level. :rolleyes:

Oh, contraire. Why didn’t you say so? Contrary to what you just said, I *can * see it if the explanation is stated in such a way as to be credible, such as you just did.

I didn’t see your post in MPSIMS, I only read your statement above that the government was lying to its citizenry, with no explanation of how the populace could have known better. Now you have, so now I know. :wink:

Feel free to actually read the rest of the thread…

I must disagree. Every single thing I’ve heard on television or read outside of this site indicates the election would probably have gone the other way.

Yes, but not *wrongful * odious, sanctimonious righteousness.

I feel for the people of Spain and what they’ve suffered at the hands of both the ETA and AQ. But I also feel for the victims and families of the victims who are going to die as a result of the vastly increased terrorist activity that will certainly result from the triumph of terrorism in Spain.

I repeat my question, worded slightly different: Were the terrorists going to give up or make less bombs if the Popular Front won the election? We can talk about ‘encouraging’ them, but these people live for terror and for killing people. They are not rational, by definition.

The point remains that the terrorists swayed the election. Your point is moot now.

They will be confident in their new found proof that terrorism is a viable political tool.