I don’t even know how to respond, this is a completely stupid thing to believe.
Well, won’t you at least try? If it’s so stupid, it shouldn’t tax even your brain much.
Those of you still insisting that Spain (or at least the part of its population that voted for capitulation) did not play into the hands of AQ, this from CNN:
*CNN also has obtained an al Qaeda document that spells out the terrorist group’s plan to separate Spain from the U.S.-led coalition on Iraq.
The document was published on the main message board that is used by al Qaeda and its sympathizers last December.
The strategy spelled out in the document calls for using terrorist attacks to oust Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar’s Partido Popular from power and replace it with the Socialists.
That, in turn, was expected to drive a wedge between Washington and Madrid and result in the withdrawal of Spanish military forces from Iraq.
“We think the Spanish government will not stand more than two blows, or three at the most, before it will be forced to withdraw because of the public pressure on it,” the al Qaeda document says.
“If its forces remain after these blows, the victory of the Socialist Party will be almost guaranteed – and the withdrawal of Spanish forces will be on its campaign manifesto.”
That prediction came to fruition in elections Sunday, with the Socialists unseating the Popular Party three days after near-simultaneous bombings of four trains killed 200 and shocked the nation.*
Posted last December and they’ve only obtained it now? My, that’s quite a coincidence :rolleyes:
I can’t believe that after all these pages of discussion, you’re still using a word like “capitulation”. I’d like to have a cite showing that any Spanish voter “capitulated” to AQ. “Capitulated” as in “you win”.
You say AQ wanted the PP out of power. Fine. The question is did voters know that? Did they base their decision on that knowledge? Did anyone vote PSOE because they knew that’s what terrorists wanted? If you cannot prove any of the above, you have no right to say Spanish voters “capitulated”, which is really just a step shy of calling them cowards.
What you need to understand is that we need to make terrorists irrelevent. They wanted the PSOE to win. So what? If you voted for the PP simply because that’s what they didn’t want you to do, guess what? You’re still letting terrorists decide who you’re voting for.
Allow me to rephrase then, because I don’t think my meaning came across. I don’t mean that in a ‘give them what they want’ sort of way. It’s like someone with cancer. You can cut out the tumour, but if you keep smoking, you’re probably going to get cancer again. Just rounding them up doesn’t complete the solution, because more will just pop up.
What the fuck are you talking about? You never heard anything about the US Navy base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba?
Read and learn… well, we can only hope!
To the extent that you had any credibility left in this thread, you sacrificed it completely with your use of the term “capitulation.”
Fucking moron.
sailor, you are truly fighting ignorance. Most people in this thread are talking out of their ass, repeating, as Starving Artist said earlier, stuff they had heard “third hand”. You are there, you are part of it, and you have eloquently and rationally spoken the truth and have not allowed yourself to become riled by the shit-spewing invective directed at your people. You do these boards a great honor with your presence. Keep up the good work.
It’s called critical thinking. Follow along with me now:
This “document” you’ve mentioned is nothing more than an anonymous posting on a message board. Since we’ve got access to a message board, how about we do a little role playing?
Let’s say that I write “if he keeps to his core message, uses 9/11 to his advantage and limits the open debates with Senator Kerry, George Bush will handily win the 2004 election.” If he does all this, then wins, does it mean I made him do it?
Somehow, you apparently believe that an anonymous prediction posted on a message board needs to be taken seriously. If you want a graphic example of your fallacy, trip on over to stormfront sometime and you’ll see exactly how silly you’re acting.
But I digress. Let’s continue with our exercise.
This information was posted in December, 2003, on a known “al Qaeda message board.” The bombing was carried out at least three months later. We can infer, then, that Aznar’s government didn’t take this obvious (and public) threat seriously enough. Therefore, the incumbent Spanish government had failed its people.
Under your reasoning, since Aznar dismissed such concrete evidence of terrorist strategy, doesn’t he deserve to be voted out of office?
Paul Krugman, writing today in the New York Times, summarizes the case far better than I can:
“It’s now clear that by shifting his focus to Iraq, Mr. Bush did Al Qaeda a huge favor. The terrorists and their Taliban allies were given time to regroup; the resurgent Taliban once again control almost a third of Afghanistan, and Al Qaeda has regained the ability to carry out large-scale atrocities.”
(I’ve linked to the article through a non-NYT cite so those not registered with the Times can read it.)
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/16/1079199221435.html
Krugman nicely summarizes the ways in which George W. Bush has been weak on terror and a friend to Al Qaeda.
If you have quarrels with specific factual points of Mr. Krugman’s analysis, perhaps I can follow up with cites for those.
Here’s an informative article from March 5th:
Spain’s ruling party slips in polls
According to the article, the government’s pollsters were predicting a wafer-thin one-seat majority for the PP, while independent polls concluded that they couldn’t even hope for that. Note that the “concern about terrorism” quoted above emphasizes ETA terrorism, with the PP campaigning on taking a firm stance against ETA terrorists:
(My emphasis.) What do y’all suppose happened to those extra “We’re the guys who keep you safe from terrorists” votes?
Viva Muad’Dib! This election has proven that Spain is in fact populated by the French!
(I like the pig’s blood ordnance idea - we should also beat terrorists with shoes on Al-Jazeera! - Humiliate those fucks!)
Al Qaeda Dope Message Board
“Fighting Infidels since 1973”
From what I’ve read, I believe their Administrator goes by the handle HookahMullah.
Actually it’s you knee jerking stupidity that’s taxing my brain, but I’m a sporting fellow, so I’ll give it a shot.
My response is to the quote below.
The issue here is whether Spain pulling out of Iraq will result in an increase of worldwide AQ activity, correct?
Seriously, what is so hard to comprehend about this?
The COLD, HARD, UNDISPUTABLE FACTS
The overwhelming majority of people in Spain didn’t want to go into Iraq.
Iraq and AQ HAVE NO LINKS WHATSOEVER.
Why is it so stupid for Spain to pull out of Iraq which DOES NOTHING FOR THEM, and possibly save their asses a bit in the process?
I suppose the crux of the issue is that you consider that cowardly, and I don’t. I’d wager Spain is pulling out for several reasons.
- Fighting in Iraq is wasting their money and resources.
- They will REALLOCATE their forces towards fighting AQ in hopes that taking them on directly will provide more tangible results then fighting in Iraq, which provides zero results.
- They piss off AQ less, which last time I checked was a good thing.
- THAT’S WHAT THE FUCKING PEOPLE WANTED IN THE FIRST PLACE, UNTIL AZFUCK DECIDED TO SAY “SCREW YOU”, SO THEY VOTED HIS ASS OUT OF OFFICE.
You know what, if AQ thinks they won, then great for them I say. They’re too stupid or delusional to realize that Spain is pulling out so it can regroup and more efficiently kick their asses.
You numbnuts think it’s more important to keep up appearances then to take bold steps with actual results.
It is quite obvious that what is the best way to decrease terrorism is a matter of opinion and even dispute. We are not going to settle that here but the OP assigns a motive to the votes
They were motivated by cowardice. This OP is as defensible as if after 9/11 someone had posted
I say the two are equally defensible.
And I’d be the first to agree.
Sailor,
Can I copy your posts in this thread and especially # 294 to my thread in GD?
They would instantly explain what I try to explain.
Salaam. A
As far as I am concerned you have my permission but you might want to check with the mods as they might prefer you to link here rather than copy.
I went to the Atocha train station this afternoon and it was very touching. A couple of times I could hardly hold my tears. The entire station and even the sidewalks around it are full of candles, flowers and notes left by people. As can be expected there are some notes of rage with insults or demands for revenge but most of them are for peace.
I have posted some photos at
http://sailor.teemingmillions.com/madrid13/Atocha1.htm
http://sailor.teemingmillions.com/madrid13/Atocha2.htm
http://sailor.teemingmillions.com/madrid13/Atocha3.htm
http://sailor.teemingmillions.com/madrid13/Atocha4.htm