I’d reckon that a huge majority of the population on the planet wants John Kerry to win. Or even a ham sandwich. ABB.
Then what the hell is he talking about when he goes on and on about “repairing our ties with the international community”? That could only mean sucking up to European interests and letting France and Germany veto our foreign policy decisions, as that’s basically what GWB was unwilling to do when he finally got fed up with UN obstructionism and invaded Iraq. (Note that I did not, and do not, support that war. But that’s because I’m against Mid-East interventionism, not because I believe that “multilateralism” magically turns a crappy war into a good one.) Since he criticizes GWB’s failure to get UN support before going to war as one of his two main objections to the war, and the reason that support was not gained is because France, Germany, and Russia opposed it, doesn’t it stand to reason that he is saying he would not take action without their support?
You mean my real life human pals? Yeah, some of them do.
Or do you mean “friends” as in nations? In that case, I really don’t think we have any real “friends” in the international community. Which is fine, let’s stop meddling in everything and just be a neutral trading-party like we were back before WW1, and we won’t need any friends. But to quote Elrond from Lord of the Rings, “our list of allies grows thin.” We just lost Spain, we haven’t had France for a couple decades now, we’ll lose the UK whenever Blair is gone. Who’s left? Poland? There is a huge divide in ideology between the US and Europe, it’s inevitable that relations become strained. Let’s just let it go and start worrying about our own selves, leave Europe to the Europeans and just make sure none of their ideology leaks through our borders.
go fuck yourself. You are an idiot of the highest order with about as much understanding of european Politics as Bush does.
Desmo? I would politely suggest that it would take more than just one Presidential election to convince that same huge worldwide majority that the USA has made a major policy change regarding world behaviour.
Call me an apologist, but nonetheless I feel sorry for the USA… she’s damned if she does, and damned if she doesn’t. The bottom line is that over 1 billion people on this planet have to live on less than $7 dollars a day I’m told. It’s an epic case of world wide poverty by any other name. By extension, the richest country on the planet is always going to be a target for damnation and emnity.
I’m not saying that the USA is without sin, of course not, but she’s also in an unenviable position too, regardless of her elected leader.
All that being said, as an Australian who knows a family who lost their 18 year old son in the Bali Bombing, my heart goes out to all the killed and injured in Madrid.
Muad D’ib, nothing pisses me off more than people who jump on a bandwagon on these boards because it’s the safe position to take. What these people don’t understand is that it doesn’t matter if the elections were influenced
or not (although they probably were), because the immediate populist response to “Pull Out of Iraq!” is more than enough to tell Al Qaeda that they’ve found an effective tactic for their cause. I can’t say I wish blight on the Spaniards but I think their actions reaffirm for AQ that terrorism can effect change. Hell, it’s a free county, but I sure as hell wouldn’t want to tell AQ that terrorism works.
Are you for fucking real?
France, Spain, the UK, the Netherlands: they are ALL your allies. Your friends. Just because the current US administration is under a lot of criticism from European nations doesn’t mean the ties have been severed. Yes, most European governments would prefer to see John Kerry instead of GWB - historically, Democrat presidents have been better partners than Republicans have been, from a Euro perspective. That doesn’t mean an entire continent now hates your guts! Divide in ideology, my ass. I’d say under Clinton, the US and Europe agreed on most matters of international interest.
There’s a lot of love and admiration for the US in Europe. Speaking for my own country, the US is seen to this day as a place of promise, a land of opportunity. Only recently has it also been criticised as a nation endangering transnational relations.
It’s not your country, it’s who’s running it. So drop the “we’ll take our ball and go home” bullshit. The US does not stand alone. And pretending it would be better if it did is stupidity of the highest order.
Yeesh.
You do realise that the only viable anti-Blair opposition in the UK is conservative. And Blair is the same kind of ‘socialist’ who just got into power in Spain: they’re political allies. And Blair’s about as socialist as my arse.
See, there’s the problem. Aznar paid the price for trying to misdirect the spanish peoples anger. I won’t disagree that Al quaida will try to put their own spin on the election events, but to me that is equally as sick as trying to win an election by blaming the bombing on your political bogeyman.
Look, sport, I’m sure there are people that are going to hate the US no matter what.
I don’t hate the US, I don’t hate the Republican party, I don’t hate conservatives in general, and up until late 2002, I didn’t hate Bush. And I certainly don’t love terrorists.
I’ve come to my own conclusion that Bush is part of the problem, and not part of the solution.
And I believe that a huge majority of the population of the planet agrees that the US is heading in the wrong direction. Shit, even a majority of the US thinks that.
The PP lost because it was playing politics in the aftermath of the bombings. The public did not like this and came out in their droves to fuck the government out on their ass.
All the people who are banging on about how terrorists are controlling elections should look a bit closer to home. How to deal with terrorism etc. is a major reason why people vote nowadays. There are lots of people who will vote for Bush just because they will feel safer under his admin. The Spanish people made their democratic decision about how they want their country run.
Like it or lump it that’s how democracy works and to type out an OP like the one in this thread just shows
- Ignorance or the reasons why this happened
- A disrespect for democracy
- Blinkered political thinking.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1169070,00.html
They played politics when they should have been just thinking about how to fnid out who/why. The people didn’t like it. Add to that the people who where already pissed off because of the War etc. and you’ve got a lost election.
Muad’Dib, Que te den por el culo hijo de puta! Yeah you are fucking stupid for thinking this way. The only reason why people voted against the PP was because they kept on insisting that it was ETA even after it became pretty clear that it was AQ. That was the problem. If Aznar had come out and said “Okay it was AQ, but its obvious that this is just an attempt to affect the elections” he probably would have won. See, the Spanish people don’t swallow bullshit when their government attempts to coverup a terrorist attack. I wish that Bush would pay for trying to do the same. One hour? I mean that is bullshit, Bush!
You can Spaniards cowards you piece of shit? You have no fucking clue. Its really fucking hard to know what to do in this kind of situation and it doesn’t make it any easier. I am dissapointed with the election, but not because the PSOE won or because Spain is pulling out of Iraq. I am dissapointed that Spain was attacked with the implicit intent of changing the outcome of the election.
It sucks but don’t blame the Spaniards.
I expect for there to be a terrorist attack a couple of days before our election. I can almost say there will be for sure. Would you be upset if we were attacked and more people voted for Kerry? I would be too, but I wouldn’t consider us cowards because of it.
Well, you’re European, so I suppose you’d know about public sentiment. But what exactly is an “ally” or a “friend”? When’s the last time France has done squat for us? I guess they’ve occasionally let us fly over their airspace, though not when it counted and could have killed a mad dictator in Libya.
Well, I’m sure that’s true. Under Clinton, the US intervened in a ridiculous civil war in Europe at their behest, and sent troops off on a bunch of well-intentioned but useless “humanitarian” missions.
I don’t see why going to war in Iraq would affect the Netherlands at all, for instance, so it didn’t really have to endanger international relations. Of course it woud endanger relations with France and Russia, since they had a financial interest in Ba’athist Iraq apparently. But I don’t see why Europe should really care what we do down there, unless it’s just a power thing.
Why can’t we “take our ball and go home”? Why do we keep a US military presence in Europe, even after the necessity for that fell along with the Berlin Wall? The need to ally with those nations disappeared along with Communism, our allies made because of the containment policy aren’t needed when there is no longer anything to contain. Why do we need the aid or support of any nation in Europe? We’d only need it if we wanted to continue our self-destructive and dangerous policy of global meddling.
I don’t have anything against the people of Europe. I just think that it’s kind of silly to act as if alliances formed first to fight Nazis, then to fight Communists, are expected to remain fixed and permanent after those threats have dissolved.
RexDart’s definition of “friend” is what I would call “vassal”.
You have heard of a country called Afghanistan haven’t you. France like most of the rest of the world had no problem joining or aiding that fight.
What? You expect only countries who will be directly affected to voice their opinions? And if those countries who aren’t directly affected disagree, it doesn’t harm relationships with those countries when you completely disregard their objections?
I especially like your condemnation of France and Russia. Of course, the US didn’t have any financial interest in “liberating” Iraq: that was all about Saddam all along, right?
FWIW, the Netherlands is in a similar position as Spain is: our PM pledged troops to be stationed in Iraq against overwhelming popular disagreement. So, I’m sure superficially, it looks like Dutch-US relationships are fine. A quick poll on the streets of Amsterdam will educate you about the prevailing sentiments with regard to the current US administration, and what it’s done to the historical ties between our two nations.
Interesting point. I for one dare state that the US is abusing its European presence privileges, granted after WWII. For instance, the US still stores nuclear weapons in the Netherlands, despite the fact that the Dutch defence forces do not operate such arms - by political choice. A small amount of them, sure. A “just in case”, should Eastern Europe become a threat again. Or perhaps the ME. At any rate, these weapons are there against the will of the Dutch people, and against repeated diplomatic request to remove them. But what can we do? We gave the US a number of army bases, post-WWII. It’s not a tennant you can kick out: the land is no longer ours, technically.
Do you honestly believe that the US is using its European presence to aid or support the nations the bases are in? Or could it be possible the privileges once earned are now used for entirely different purposes?
The threats have been replaced, and US and European interests largely remain the same. Solid alliances exist because of a deep, longlasting common bond (and in this case, common history), not because a temporary enemy unifies two nations.
Ahh…the rage of dreaming sheep.
If the terrorist attacks motivated the Spanish to vote the party that led them into a war they did not want out of office, then it was a good thing. These days, I find myself agreeing with the terrorists goals more and more. I agree that we should get our troops out of the Middle East, and I don’t think the USA should be supporting the corrupt governments of Saudi Arabia and Israel. I hope that Americans wise up and change things on their own without having to suffer any such ‘shock treatment’, but that may be the only thing that makes us wake up.
Fuck! The OP disgusts me. Where is the support that poured out for the US after 9/11? Shit most of the frigging western world held vigils and memorials etc for your countrymen. Where is the same respect for the fucking victims of another country?
And how about the fact that in most democratic countries elections are not won or lost on a single issue. Yes the bombings may have affected SOME peoples vote (for the bloody good…they got rid of a lap dog anyway) but are you so fucking superior and condescending to think that the Spanish people were not capable of deciding who to vote for on a raft of issues?
The PP were winning in the polls, guess what polls mean fucking nothing. One speech by the leader of the opposition here in NZ has basicaly reversed the polls overnight. The election is not till next year. People change their minds frequently when they live in a bloody democracy. No bombs or US-sucking up required.
The majority of the fucking world, let alone the Spanish people, was against this frigging stupid war. If the Spanish people CHOOSE to punish their govt for putting them in the line of fire then they are exercising their democratic right.
They are not “pussies” they have, as a country, decided to protect THEIR national interests. Not Iraqs or the US but THEIR interests. Of course as govts are want to do, the new lot will undoubtably have their earplugs in as well and carry on to do exactly what they want requardless of what you or the Spanish people think.
After all, did all Americans support what your lovely president did?
Grow a smidgen of empathy. It won’t hurt much…think about the families in Spain as much as you thought about your fellow Americans on 9/11.
If you don’t the terrorists really have won. :rolleyes:
No merece aquel gilipollas que se le dé por el culo, que ésto puede procurar placer.
Guys, let’s keep things restricted to English around here. Yes, I know what a “hijo de puta” is, but that’s as far as my Spanish goes, I’m afraid. Well, unless you count “donde es el banyo?”, but I digress.
Especially with hot button threads, we like to be able to see exactly what people say. So, as much as I’m impressed with your language skills, let’s stick to English. Gracias. 