gobear, quite being so obtuse. Some of them worked in houses, too!
I don’t give a rat’s ass if it’s a civil right’s issue or not; I’m just saying that I’ve heard veterans of the racial civil rights movement bemoan the fact that homosexuals are comparing discrimination against them – which is not based on an innate characteristic (being attracted to the same sex), but a specific behavior (having sex with the same sex) – to discrimination based on the color of one’s skin. So to tar everyone who is against homosexual marriage as also being the same people who want to oppress black people is either stupid, ignorant, or malicious slander used to dehumanize people who disagree with you (not you personally).
Cry me a river, pal. There is no reasonable basis for opposing gay marriage. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch. Your religion opposes it? Too bad, this isn’t a theocracy. You think it’s icky? Get over it. Opposing gay marriage is opposition to full civil equality for all citizens, period. It’s not a reasonable position, and the people who oppose it may be quiet and soft-spoken, but their bigotry is just as real as that of the Phelps clan. Bigotry can be as genteel as a Sunday tea and doesn’t require “seething rage and hatred”–it only requires that you feel innately superior to people of a different orientation.
So cut the hysterics, sister.
Do you really want me to dredge up Trent Lott, the Willie Horton tactic, Jese Helms’ TV ad with the black hands taking away white jobs, the opposition of the GOP to every civil rights advance in this country? Are you that naive?
I just think it’s weird that out of all the hundreds of people I personally know who believe that homosexual behavior is wrong, I haven’t met any whom I know to actually hate - or even dislike - homosexuals (as if you could lump them all together).
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Do you even read what you post? If you think homosexual behavior is wrong, then You. Don’t. Like. Homosexuals. Jiminy, how do you function with such a cognitive disconnect?
I don’t hate Jews, I just don’t like their Jewishness."
“I don’t hate blacks, I just disapprove of their skin color.”
Do you hear how stupid that sounds?
Here’s one that should be sufficent. If you like, I can list a number of groups that oppose civil rights for racial minorities and gay people. The ministers have allied themselves with a highly unsavory cause.
JuanitaTech, point taken. But then, one tends to find that much of what passes for conservative African-American leadeship these days behaves like house servants.
While I apreciate the destinction you are making, I think that in general it’s a very fine line which is often used to give descrimination a seemingly acceptable venere. Consider this: If one accepts that orientation is an innate physical characteristic beyond a person’s control, as you’ve said above, yet holds that it’s the “behavior of homosexual sex” that’s wrong, and should not be tolerated, what one is doing is denying the gay person their right to a complete relationship-emotional, spiritual and physical- with the person of their choice because the person they love is the same sex. Certainly, gay folks aren’t defined by gay sex, but every person has the right to the sex life of their choice (consenting adults, etc…, yadda, yadda) and by denying them this you are making meaningless the very destinction that you started out with. “It’s Ok to be gay as long as you don’t act on it” is the exact same arguement used by generations of racist folks denying their bias: “I don’t mind the niggers as long as they don’t live in my neighborhood or date my daughter”. Saying on one hand that it’s “OK” to be gay while on the other denying gay folks the rights and priveledges outinely accorded to everyone else in society as a matter of course ( marriage, estate planning, elder care decisions, common property arangements and, yes, sex, amongst others) IS descrimination. Your black friends can decry the fact that homosexuals are now pushing for the same rights that they ( the black friends ) won a generation ago all they want, but make no mistake, it makes them hypocrites of the highest order.
That’s blindingly obvious.
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I’m just saying that I’ve heard veterans of the racial civil rights movement bemoan the fact that homosexuals are comparing discrimination against them – which is not based on an innate characteristic (being attracted to the same sex), but a specific behavior (having sex with the same sex) – to discrimination based on the color of one’s skin.
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That’s some mighty fine hair-splitting there, Tex.
You;re being disingenuous. I didn’t say anti-gay=racist. I said that the black ministers who oppose gay marriage are allying themselves with parties who are anti-gay and racist. The GOP that opposes gay marriage today is the same GOP that opposes every civil rights bill that has come down the pike since the 60s.
Continuing the hijack, the religious right likes to make use of minorities to attack the rights of other minorities. It helps them with their major PR problem – that their leadership is almost entirely old, white, straight, high-income males.
During the same-sex marriage debate here in Canada, our religious right trotted out a guy named Dennis Mok, a self-descibed Chinese Christian, who went on radio to say, “There is a silent majority that is concerned about this marriage definition. Chinese tend to be very quiet, and we decided that we are going to do something to bring them out, to help them to voice out their opinions.”
The purpose of this tactic was to throw more politically-correct Canadians off-guard. It was supposed to say, “See? See? We’re not all white guys, and you aren’t evil for supporting us.”
But then the Chinese Canadian National Coalition threw their support behind gay marriage 
A reactionary group enlisting minority support is a cynical, but increasingly-popular, tactic. It’s a strategy bithed in the cesspools of the marketing industry and demonstrates total contempt for the public.
You can find anyone who’ll believe anything, and the pastors and ministers who are lining up in favour of unequal marriage will be an embarassment for their churches a generation from now.
:smack:
That’s the first time I’ve done that in ages. The above post is mine, not my roommate’s.
Since when do racial minorities own the concept of civil rights? All of us, regardless of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or any other distinction, have rights which the government is bound to respect. Comparing one civil rights movement to another makes perfect sense, regardless of what your homophobic minority friends say.
Yeah, me too. I suspect a lot of people “on the edge” saw how hatefully insane Phelps is, and now support SSM.
Strawman.
You are so full of shit. I had teachers, have family members, friends, and lots of people I know in general opposed to gay marriage. You’re saying they are fundamentally bad people because they disagree with you one one issue? Fuck you, asshole. You can’t see the forest for the trees.
I’m pissed that the fuckheaded religious right is trampling on human rights. I’m pissed that a group of equal people aren’t getting treated equally. But I’m also starting to get a little upset that supporters of that group are more and more resorting to nasty shit-slinging, and some pretty irrational words and arguments. This refers mostly to the boards but a little bit to the issue at large as well.
I thought it might do everyone some good to hear that two Phelp’s were arrested yesterda, here in Topeka.
http://www.cjonline.com/stories/051804/loc_brownsecurity.shtml
Topeka was celebrating the opening of a new US historical monument, dedicated to the Brown vs Board of Education of Topeka, so naturally Margie and her son took the opportunity to picket against gays.
I won’t go as far as spectrum and say that everyone who is opposed to gay marriage is evil. But I believe that being opposed to gay marriage is not just wrong, it is actually evil.
There are plenty of political opinions and positions that I disagree with, but which I can respect. But opposition to gay marriage is not one of them.
Which doesn’t mean that I think that anyone who has that opinion is 100% evil. I’m sure that there are people who oppose gay marriage who would (if there were a truly just God) still get into heaven. But I can not find even a shred of sympathy for the position itself. It’s wrong. It’s hurtful. It’s evil.
You know what the world is like from our point of view? It’s like that joke about the boy who keeps saying “purple box,” and for simply uttering that word, is ostracized by friends, tossed out by his family, and abandoned by his family.
Being in this world sometimes is like being trapped inside that joke. Only our sexuality is the ineffable phrase. We were picked out on a spin of the Great Roulette Wheel of Prejudice. There is no reason for what we have to go through to get the same rights and respect that most people get by privilege of birth.
I’m sick of it. I’m sick of people who’ve never met me fighting against me because apparently I’m a threat to their families. How would I be that? I’ve never even met their families. I’m sick of the Catholic church, that bloated Tyrannosaurus Rex, raising tax-free funds to threaten our elected officials with eternal damnation to influence the vote.
And mostly I’m just sick of people who inform me that their absolute faith in their personal relationship with a 2000-year-dead Palestinian nationalist – who, along with his father (who is also himself) apparently made the universe in six days – requires them to fight against my friends’ right to marry an out-of-country boyfriend so they can immigrate. Or so that they’re protected in case of accident or death.
It’s absurd! Absolutely absurd! We’re trapped in a Monty Python sketch! “The oral traditions of hill tribes of the Levant tell us that homosexuals don’t have the right to dental benefits!” Argggh!
You’re running out of patience? I came out 11 years ago. I think my patience is monumental this point for bnot having gone ballistic sooner. No, I will not tolerate some bigot’s point of view because you happen to think they’re a very nice person. I would not tolerate a racist point of view from a friend, family member, or coworker. Why should we expect anything else?
I disagree. I think it’s wrong but I just don’t think it’s evil. Sorry.
I feel like people who are over-zealous about issues like this seem to just be kowtowing to whatever minority group and watering down the actual argument. I mean, if I was gay or black or belonged to whatever X opressed group of people, I wouldn’t want a douche like spectrum defending me.
No, they’re not “fundamentally bad people” but they’re not good people either, not so long as they believe in discriminating against people and denying rights based upon inherent characteristics. Good people don’t discriminate or support discrimination. Good people don’t stand by when people are discriminated against and say “oh, gee, um, this really isn’t my fight.” Good people believe in, support and affirm equality for all.
I’m sorry if that interferes with your judgements about your family members, friends and others that you know, but it’s a simple truth. This isn’t about agreeing with a position, this is about a basic belief about how people should be treated in a decent and progressive society. If you’re not capable of recognizing that sexual orientation isn’t a legitimate basis for denial of basic rights, then you’re not on board the “good people” train.
Back to the OP…
I think masonite has an excellent point. By ignoring these people we essentially take the power away from them. If people care what they say, and care to fight and argue with them, then (a) they will fight back, louder and more viciously, and (b) the media will continue to cover their bullshit.
It’s one thing to fight ignorance. It’s another to ignore hateful, awful, evil people in order to take away their voice.
And as to this whole “folks who oppose gay marriage are evil”, I think MaxTheVool has it spot on. The opposition of gay marriage is evil, but often the people who are opposing it are not.
For example: I know several older folks who are against gay marriage, for various reasons. The are most certainly NOT evil. But the ideas that they have are. These ideas need to be changed. But calling them evil will probably do more harm than good.
In other words, it’s certainly possible to have evil thoughts, ideas, beliefs without being evil. In fact, I think that’s part of what makes us all human.
I’m not going to go tit for tat on this. Suffice it to say that I can’t wait for the day when everyone has equal rights. I just refuse to believe that other people can’t be good people while disagreeing with this.
And let’s all face something else here: Gays not being able to officially say they’re married for tax or benefits reasons is not the same struggle blacks or even women went through in the 20th century so stop comparing them.
No one is telling you that you can’t live together, have sex, love each other, or otherwise act exactly like any married couple. And they are sure as fuck not telling you that you can’t vote, you have to sit at the back of the bus, you have to drink at a different water fountains, eat at different restaurants, or go to different schools.
Refusing you one little piece of paper - while it sucks, and it pisses me off, and I can’t wait until it ends - is NOT the same thing as what was happening to blacks a few decades ago and saying they are the same thing is getting to be a little bit offensive.
It might be a nice theory to ignore the Phelps clan in order to take away their voice, but that which is sensational is news, even if it is completely devoid of legitimacy. It’s kind of like supermarket tabloids – they provide interesting entertainment, but have no legitimacy.
They’re kind of like the people who talk about how to determine if your neighbor is a space alien; so utterly ridiculous that they provide comic relief. Does anyone believe that anti-gay marriage protestors are generally a bunch of people that would say that “God hates fag enablers”?
Hey, I like theories. Communism was a pretty nifty theory, riiiiight?
Seriously, though, my point is that when legitimate news media take part in this, it only inspires the loonies. By all means, put them in the National Enquirer next to the alien space dog.
But again, if people DO NOT engage them, then what’s the news? That Phelps is making a stink outside the courthouse?
Perhaps you’re right, though. People enjoy the sensational aspect of the news so much, that perhaps it’s impossible to expect them not to stare stupidly at the car wreck.
Still, it’s a nice theory…
Sorry, Cisco, but you’re dead wrong. Neither women nor blacks nor gay people were/are treated equally. Sure, it’s in different specific things that the descrimination manifests itself, Women could not vote, they had limited property rights, blacks had to sit at the back of the bus and go to seperate schools, gays can’t marry and often are physically assaulted just for being gay, but boil it all down and it’s the exact same thing: Because of a characteristic determined by an individual’s genes, they are denied basic rights. Rights are rights, arguing if being prohibited from marriage is a “better” or “worse” right to be denied than voting or education or whatever is stupid, and only shows that one has MISSED THE ENTIRE POINT.