God Hates Phelps Enablers

The BBQ Pit
41

gobear, Blacks are more homophobic than everyone else. Many, like some of my relatives, think that gay people are the corporations of the 21st century. That is, that laws meant for us wound up being more frequently used more favorably for other entities.

Corporations became legally treated as individual persons by invoking the 14 andd 15th Amendments, which were meant for former slaves. By the end of the century, there were massively rich corporations from corproation-friendly laws, while Blacks suffered from Jim Crow.

Many Blacks think that once again that laws meant to protect them has been used more effectively by others. So they think that gays who joined the civil rights movement were and are ‘out for their own agenda’, as one of my relatives say. Combine it with the relatively conservative Biblically-based beliefs that many Black people have, and the economic situation Black men in particular find themselves in, we have speeches such as those from the preachers you mentioned.

42

Sure is, when do we get the Phelps clan relegated to the Weekly World News where they belong?

There is still the problem that if they’re in the media, they’re giving them some degree of legitimacy. Unfortunately, I think “God hates fag enablers” and that stick drawing of anal sex that they have are sensational enough to garner media attention without counterprotest. Just like a car wreck indeed.

43

Yea, that sucks. I once got a pool-cue jammed into my stomach for telling a woman I was gay in an attempt to get her to stop hitting on me. She thought that was just the most disgusting thing she had ever heard.

While this is not directly the Government’s fault, I guess I can kind of sort of see how the government not recognizing gay marriage would make this seem a little more OK in the eyes of the psychos that do it in the first place.

Is there a gay gene? I admit complete ignorance to the current state of the nature vs. nurture gay argument because it’s gone back and forth so many times I quit paying attention (and there’s so much bunk info out there on both sides of the argument.)

I guess you’re right. I just don’t see the government telling me that I officially love someone as meaningful as them telling me I can officially vote or I can officially go to the same schools as everyone else. I couldn’t care less about their opinions of my love life and if something about me made them not recognize my ideas of marriage well then I would simply not recognize their ideas of marriage.

On that note: How long has marriage been a governmental thing and not a purely religious institution?

44

Oh, I couldn’t agree with you more, Cisco, but the issue here is that it can matter in certain cases, and however you or I might feel about it, certain things need to be sacrosanct. Example: My wife is pregnant. If, during her pregnancy there are complications requiring a decision (Say, life or death, the baby or the mother, whatever…KNOCK HARD ON WOOD), I would be the one to make that decision, hopefully based upon a pryor discussion of it with my wife. Nobody would think twice about it. Now suppose gobear has been with his partner for 20 years. The partner needs surgury, there are risks, the two of them discuss it and decide that if “X” happens, they want “Y”. As things stand now, in many cases, gobear’s partner’s family could desend upon the hospital and totally exclude gobear from the entire process, maybe decidng that “Z” is what should be done, even if gobear had been specifically told by his partner that under no circumstances did he want “Z”. These are the kinds of things people who support same sex marriages are fighting for. Frankly, I don’t know of anyone except a few fringe people who want to force religious sanctioned same sex marriages upon churches that don’t want it, it’s the secular benefits and rights that are being fought for, and these are the civil rights that are currently denied.

45

I think a major reason that it looked like the media was portraying it as if the Phelps crowd was the entirety of the anti-gay-marriage protesters, was because at many events this past week, they were. When Cambridge City Hall opened at midnight Monday morning for the first filings, there were (from the numbers I’ve seen reported here) approximately six protesters from Phelps’s group, and that was pretty much the extent of the anti side. By contrast, there were about 10,000 cheering in favor. During the time I was there, from about 12:30AM to 4:45AM, I saw not a single person protesting against gay marriage.

The next morning at Boston City Hall, I definitely saw a few protesters, but it seemed to be mostly from the extremist edge. In today’s Globe, it was mentioned that many of the groups opposed to gay marriage sat out protesting the ceremonies, and are trying to figure out what remaining options they have. They seem to be figuring that protesting at wedding ceremonies does more harm than good. Certainly the gatherings in front of the State House while the issue was being debated were far better represented by the homophobic-bigot-but-not-a-screaming-lunatic faction.

46

A great question, worth highlighting. Would someone knowledgeable please answer this; I think it’s at the crux of the debate. We are NOT living in a theocracy, regardless of what the Fathers intended. If we were, we ought to deport all non-Christians, or non-theists anyway. We are living in perhaps the noblest experiment of all, a government that tries to be just to all its citizens, regardless of religion.

I really must object to this. It’s much deeper than that, and your other comments in this thread indicate you know that. Sorry for the pool-cue incident; that strike was meant for me, really. Thanks for taking the jab in the stomach for me.

47

Incidentally, Cisco, same-sex marriage is just one part of the Queer civil rights movement. It’s an important step, but ending social discrimination will take a lot longer. There’s also plenty of work to be done for trans people and young Queer people, for example, and still plenty of countries where sodomy is a crime.

48

If you count “government” as “the organised manifestation of the rules of a society”, government had it first by far. This is, however, sophistry on my part. :wink:

The ancient Egyptians had both recorded marriage and recorded divorce; these were purely civil contracts, with established customs behind them (for example, on divorce, the woman got 1/3 of the joint property). They had absolutely no religious ritual for marriage – basically, as far as we can tell, people threw a big party with both participating families, declared themselves married, and moved in together. Divorces sometimes required lawyers.

Now, whenever I point this out, people start arguing that that doesn’t count because it’s not English law, so let’s look at the English law. In fact, Northern Piper did the research on this a while back, and determined that religion got exclusive control of marriage in England between 1753 and 1837. Before that, people had the ability (as in ancient Egypt) to marry themselves, though some folks strongly encouraged a witness. Afterwards, the option of church or civil marriage was established; the ‘people marry themselves’ option persists in some places’ common-law marriage statutes in their various forms, but that option is getting harder and harder to find these days.

My religion doesn’t have a marriage ceremony (I’m an Egyptian recon, which is why I know crap like the above); I’m married through the civil rituals. We also threw a big party and shacked up. :smiley:

49

Anyone who understands the situation, and still supports fundamental discrimination against an innocent group of American citizens is just as evil as every Klansman, every White Citizens Council Member and everyone else who supported discrimination against blacks. You cannot knowingly support hateful discrimination and be a good person. It is absolutely impossible.

Anyone who does so out of sheer ignorance is salvagable. But it’s a small slope from ignorance to evil in this situation.

The forest is composed of gay Americans, and shitheads like your scum friends are trying to cut us all down with chainsaws so that they can get a better view of their mystical Sky Pixie.

50

God, you’re such a fucking apologete for evil. The Klan coulda used a few pals like you in the 1950s and 1960s.

Legally putting a “Straights Only” sign at the door of all of America’s wedding chapels is far more evil than all the “Whites Only” signs at all the water fountains all the Southern towns throughout all of the segregational era – marriage is more fundamental to the human condition than drinking fountains. Less fundamental than the right to vote, but more than sitting at the front of a bus.

51

It is precisely the same struggle – a struggle for full access to the legal structures of our society. Anyone who pretends that there is a fundamental difference here is either deluded, and imbecile, or a bigot.

Oh? Well YIPPEE! We can PRETEND. Well golly gee, master, that sure is swell of you. We can PRETEND. Won’t that be wonderful… until one of us ends up in the hospital, or dies, and our entire life is ripped away because we have no marital protections.

But as I die alone in my hospital bed, separated from the person I love from the evil that is my parents, I suppose I could PRETEND that he was there, huh? Is that supposed to be good enough, asshole?

Marriage is more than just a fucking piece of paper. It is the difference between having the entire support system of modern society to aid in the preservation and elevation of one’s relationship and having absolutely nothing.

It is a matter of fundamental equality. And no good person can knowingly oppose fundamental equality. Only evil people consciously oppose equality.

52

You mother fucker.
God forbid you have a little fucking faith in goddamn human fucking decency and fucking forgiveness. Did you ever stop to think that people can be misguided? People that want to do the right thing show up in churches every week and get told by their fucktarded soul-sucking preachers that god doesn’t like homosexuality and maybe they just feel like it’s the right thing to do to gently oppose it? Yes, they’re wrong. Yes they’re misguided and ignorant but that one thing doesn’t make them bad people.

Jesus fuck, I give up. I’m so pissed at you I can’t even form a coherant argument or type complete sentences.

Eat shit you scumfucking dickhat.

53

Spectrum, you are a fucking asshole. Several of us were talking to Cisco about the ramifications of same sex marriage and how the little piece of paper WAS important, and I honestly believe that we were making progress, in post #43 Cisco had even said “I guess you’re right” and wanted to talk more about the dividing line between religious marriage and state marriage. This was obviously a case of someone with a moderate opinion looking at the facts and realizing that there was no logical, reasonable defense for oposing same sex marriage.

So what do you do? Instaed of saying “thank you” to Cisco for his expanding horizions, for his willingness to consider that his previous opinion may have been wrong,you make 3, count them THREE posts in a row cherry picking statements he’d made earlier in the thread, some that he had even backed away from later as wrong, and procede to insult him unmercifly.

Way to go, idiot.

Look, I am not gay and you are, but I believe passionately in the cause of gay rights, and your huranging, insulting and harassing Cisco is not helping at all, in fact it’s hurting. This fight is going to be won in the middle, with people who are essensialy too honest to deny the truth when it’s shown to them in a reasonable light, and you’re blowing it. You tactics of loud outrage and violent confrontation are going to alienate the very people who would be willing to support your cause if aproached reasonabley. Someone who is thinking about the matter from a middle of the road position is not going to be swayed to your side by your getting in his face and screaming HOMOPHOBE! LIAR! RACIST! GAY-BAITER! ASSHOLE!

Look, I understand that you ARE outraged at being treated as a second class citizen, descriminated against each and every day of your life. Your rage is understandable, but it is COMPLETELY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. Be as angry as you want, but don’t cut off your nose to spite your face. I remember seeing a guy at a gay pride event. He was dressed as outrageously as he could manage, Sam Browne belt across a bare chest, chaps, exposed buttocks, the whole nine yards. At one point he went up onto the sidewalk and rubbed himself against a passerby, a rather conservative looking man in a suit, yelling “We just want to be treated equally”. The man looked disgusted and walked away. Now, I have no idea what that man’s stance on equal rights for gays may have been before, but he was at least watching the gay pride parade without a look of distaste, even displaying a bit of interest, however, I bet that after being assaulted ( And you can argue the severity of the “assault” all you want, but if I’m minding my own business and someone violates my personal space in such an egregious manner, I am not going to be disposed to treat him like my long lost brother ) by the marcher he has nothing but disgust for the idea of equality for gay folks. There is a time and a place for your confrontational attitde, but this isn’t it. Save the vitirol for the fundies who really don’t give a damn about people and will never back away from hating those who they think their superstition tells them to hate. They’re a lost cause anyway, and as good a target for venting your spleen on this issue as any.

54

spectrum, I don’t regard bigots as being ‘evil’, just good-natured people with flawed beliefs in one thing, until they prove otherwise.

Lashing out at them will do no good, and in fact may reinforce their bigotry shell. Decency and dignity serve to crack that shell much better than lashing out at them. It takes work, and it can be frustrating at times, but the rewards are potentially great for both you and the bigot.

55

While I do apologize for the triple-post making everything I say seem a lot more… EMPHATIC than I intended it to be. That’s entirely my fault for coming in late and not consolidating all my responses into one post.

I will not “thank” anyone who supports those who further an anti-gay agenda. He has spent post upon post trying to defend the hatred of gays his scummy friends and family espouse towards gays. That can’t be overlooked, no matter how far he may personally have come (though I see no real progress there… he began as pro-marriage and thus couldn’t move anyway towards the pro-marriage side).

I disagree. Allowing anyone – ANYONE – to defend those who would see gays destroyed is an unconscionable evil, tantamount to sitting on your hands and saying nothing in the South prior to the civil rights movement.

The only people I consider homophobes are those who knowingly – ie, they understand the situation – oppose gay marriage.

Those who do so out of ignorance are rather pathetic, but they’re not evil. If they have a soul and a shred of human decency in them, they’ll come around eventually. If they never do, then they were lost from the beginning.

But anyone who does so with knowledge of that which they are doing is pure evil, and unsalvageable.

That absolutely was assault. I would have sued that disgusting pervert for everything he had.

I really wish that the ratio of normal gays to oversexed “shocking” freaks at gay pride parades was better.

I think the Pit is precisely the place for it. This is not a place built around constructive dialogue.

56

After a year and nearly 700 posts here, you should be aware that constructive dialogues very often do happen in the Pit. And Weirddave is right - this was looking like one of those times, until you jumped in.

57

Then I apologize to Cisco, the rest of the thread participants and Cisco (again). I should have taken my umbrage to a separate thread, and not derailed this one. I’m sorry.

58

Good on you, spectrum, it takes guts to apologise for getting upset and venting over what is an upseting situation. Hopefully Cisco will come back and we can continue cordialy, and I would hope you will stay to offer your input, it’s a valuable perspective. I think making people see exactly how being gay impacts your life in ways they don’t even consider is one of the keys to wider support for gay rights and same sex marriage. After all, how’s a poor breeder to know that it’s not all blow jobs and faaaabulous wardrobes? :wink:

59

The venue for your umbrage isn’t the point in question, my brother. Sure, venting a concentrated beam of incandescent flame on a worthy target can be highly satisfying, but if that is your only mode of posting, you’re just going to get relegated to being background noise.

Cisco’s posts were annoying me, too, but he was showing signs of listening until you started ranting. You gotta discern when it’s appropriate to dismiss an adversary as flame-bait and when it’s possible to open up a bridge of communication, however tenuous.
Gay people make up somewhere between 4 to 10 percent of the population–we’re a minority. If we want to get our voices heard and amend the laws to be more inclusive, we are going to have to find allies among the hetero segment of the country. We have to be evangelists for liberty, explaiing why supporting why gay rights is good not only for gay foks, but for straight folks as well. We have to appeal to the self-interest of straight folks, and to do that we have to talk to them, not at them.

Jah Ras Tafari knows I can be one strident sumbitch, but I’m trying, Ringo. I’m trying real hard to be the shepherd.

I really wish I could invite each opponent of gay rights out for beer. A conversation over a pint of lager can solve just about any problem, I find.

60

A tip of the cap to ya, Spectrum.