God heals? Question FROM a Christian

This was one of the things that nudged me closer to atheism.

I grew up Catholic, and was taught to pray, to trust in god, etc. I was also born with club feet, had multiple surgeries over many years, lots of pain, lots of being different. I prayed every night for god to help me. What did I do to deserve this? Why did I have to live this way? Eventually I stopped, and I realized that praying had the same effect as not praying.

I’ve always wondered how any can look around and say that god is all loving. Really, I don’t get it. Take one of the most extreme examples of human love: a mother’s love for her child. What wouldn’t a truly loving mother do for their children? If one of them was hurt or sick, and they had the ability to help them, would they do it? Of course, no question. Now look at god. God is supposed to love you even more than this. God has the ability to heal or help anyone he wants to in any way possible. But he doesn’t. If god doesn’t even love us as much as a parent loves their children, how can he be called all loving?

God loves a mystery above all other things?

Actually atheists are not “out to prove God does not exist”. They just haven’t seen enough evidence to support the idea of any of the gods that have been offered.

Best wishes for your friend.

Can God’s ways be so mysterious that even He can’t understand them?

You can’t prove something doesn’t exist in any case.

Excellent question! It’s a mystery.

Yes, it is. For some of us this is kind of a big problem. :wink: For others I guess the ‘we can’t understand why this happens’ explanation is good enough.

That’s why people came up with the idea of gods in the first place: it can be reassuring and psychologically pleasing for us to think that everything happens for a good reason. I’m pretty sure that’s not true.

That isn’t an issue with God, that’s an issue with idiots who rely on pithy God filled platitudes for comfort, without ever bothering to examine the Big Theological Questions created by those pity platitudes and how non-comforting those platitudes are when prayers are not answered with a “Yes.” Far better than some sort of “God Heals” is the pithy, but less commitment driven “May God give you the strength to see you through this.”

Death and sickness were not part of God’s plan, they entered the world when sin did. Through the sacrifice of Jesus your friend will live in paradise with God for eternity. Whether she goes in a year or is healed and goes in 30 years does not alter that. When my father got cancer, I prayed like I had never done before, and when he died I found it hard to pray again for at least a year. I still don’t know why he died and others were healed or why he got sick when others were healthy. But I also don’t know why I had a great dad and someone else’s dad left her family when she was six month’s old or I got to have him all those years and someone else I know lost both parents before they turned 17. The world is a painful place but those of us who find the refuge from the storm that is faith in God are the lucky ones. The pain of the world does not just fall on those who deserve it, Jesus wept at the death of a friend, Paul had a life filled with danger and pain, the Bible is full of righteous people who suffered. But while we know that God plans cannot possibly be comprehended by us, our faith can lead us to comfort in knowing that God is good and that even in suffering we can still feel his love and his peace.
The people who are using this person’s pain to mock his/her faith, should take a long look in the mirror.

I don’t think anyone is here to mock jt’s faith.

None of these expanations make sense. It’s logically impossible for an omnimax God to allow suffering, and that’s all there is to it. No amount of rationalizing is going to square that circle. God can’t “learn” anything, nor can he require suffering a a means to any end, nor can any suffering happen unless he willed it to before he created the universe.

The OP’s question has no answer…or rather it DOES have an answer, just not a very comfortable one for theists.

Who’s mocking?

jtgain, I’m sorry about your friend. It’s really shitty that she has cancer, and there’s nothing I can say that will make it make sense. Those of us who believe that God can and (sometimes) does protect and heal people have to confront the fact that he sometimes doesn’t, and we don’t know why, except that this world is a dangerous place and being a Christian and/or a good person doesn’t make you immune.

I don’t know that that’s the standard response. I, personally, am very reluctant to assert what God is doing, or why, in any particular situation; that strikes me as potentially blasphemous.

If there is a “standard Christian response” it is that (1) death is not the end, and (2) our God is not one who is unmoved by suffering, but one who is with us in the midst of it.

As a Christian myself, though a non-traditional one, I’ll try to give you my perspective, which has helped me quite a bit where the traditional ones have left me wanting. The thing is, if God is omnipotent and all that, then the manner in which the world unfolds is essentially his "perfect plan. In that context, praying for certain things to happen is asking for our limited views and selfish motivations to supercede that plan. Sometimes we get what we want, because it is in alignment with that plan, and sometimes we don’t because it’s not.

To me, that’s not what prayer is about and that’s not why things happen the way they do. Afterall, everyone has to die eventually, and expecting God to heal everyone every time is obnoxious. Instead, I think we are here on our journeys to learn and to grow, and I don’t pray for God to heal people, but rather to help us learn and grow from the situation and gain peace with it. When people I love get sick, while I certainly hope they get better, I don’t pray for that because I realize that what I really want is the greatest good for us all which, if we believe in his divine plan, it must be. Instead, I pray that he helps open us to the experience and that we can learn from it and have peace with it.

Once I really, honestly tried out this alternative approach, I found that my prayers ended up being much more effective. In fact, situations that I would previously have fretted about for hours or days, I quickly lost that anxiety and, in fact, found that I almost always found that I got what I wanted, even if it wasn’t what I thought I wanted beforehand. In that sense, I felt as though, rather than fighting with the will of God, I instead became just a bit more in line with him, and so understanding and having peace with that aspect came that much more naturally.

In fact, in my most recent example from about two weeks ago, I started out praying for what I wanted, and when I realized and caught myself, I literally got an answer simultaneously. Interestingly enough, it wasn’t what I wanted when I started praying, but my approach to the situation was different, and I was mostly at peace with it.
And, since it was mentioned by others in this thread, I also think this is why so many people lose their faith when they feel their prayers are unanswered. It seems much to me like a child repeatedly asking their parents for a cookie and repeatedly being told no and concluding that their parents don’t love them, rather than asking their parents to explain to them and help them understand why not.

People want something to cling to. They don’t analyze it to see if it’s internally logical or fits with all their other beliefs. Remember when you were a kid and something bad happened, and your parents held you and told you everything would be OK? We would all like to recapture that at one point or another. Some people can obfuscate the cognitive dissonance enough to do so, and the others are atheists, or at least a very different kind of theist.

To paraphrase Epicurus, God is either stupid, weak, or a complete asshole. I’m sorry about your friend.

That really sucks. My wife’s sister has been confined to a wheelchair with MS for over ten years and we’ve asked many of the same questions, and there is no really satisfying answer.

Speaking to you as a Christian, here are my thoughts.

The truth is, the world is broken. We see that in lots of places but never so acutely as in the sickness or death of a loved one. I don’t believe God delights in your friend’s disease or gave it to her to test her or for any other reason. In fact I’m fairly confident that it breaks God’s heart to see her suffer even more than it does yours.

So the real reason isn’t why did God do it (he didn’t); but why doesn’t He stop it? Why allow her to suffer and likely die young? I don’t think there is a good Christian answer. We know that “all things work together for good to those that love God” and that “the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared to the glory that will be revealed in us” (both quotes from Romans) but that can be cold comfort.

I think it’s okay to be mad at God about the situation. Be pissed at him even. But ultimately, if you do have faith, you have trust that he knows what he is doing and that he loves your friend despite appearances. “‘For I know the plans I have for you,’ declares the LORD, ‘plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.’” Jeremiah 29:11

My answer is ^this^ with a little less invective and hyperbole (not that it’s bad, just not how I would say it).

The OP’s question doesn’t have to do with God. It has to do with PEOPLE. People are just trying to comfort themselves by saying things to make themselves (and perhaps others) feel better. In the process, they’ve not thought about the implications of what they’re saying.

jtgain, I’m sorry you and your friend are going through this, and I wish you and everyone who loves her peace and strength.

That said, I’m going to move this to Great Debates, which I think is a better home for it.

twickster, MPSIMS moderator

So god was incapable of including the possibility of sin in his plan?

God does not work necessarily on the carnal (flesh) body as much as the eternal one (spirit). Can God cure it, certainly, will He, perhaps yes perhaps no. In our carnal bodies we get to interact with others, and through us acting in Love, we are doing the work Jesus called us to do. We each have a roll and a plan, so much work before He needs to take us out of this world because we need to go to the next step.

Our bodies break down partly so we can learn how helpless we are, partly to let our (grown) children go as some parents hold on too tightly and never would allow their children to become their own persons.

The greatest step is for your friend is to acknowledge her helplessness in the situation, to put in her request to the Father, but accept God’s will. This can be seen

Also remember that though the Father did not alter the situation for Jesus the end result revealed the reason for His suffering.
Good luck and God bless.