I’m also bothered by the idea of giving because of a reward. It seems to me if you’re going to give to God–who is the ultimate in good–the aim of giving should be to contribute to goodness. Not to earn wealth.
What if Malachi 3:10 had said, “Ask not what your God will do for you because of your tithe, but ask, as you are giving tithe, what more you can do for God”? Would people still insist on tithing? If the bible had left out that part about tithers being blessed, would people still want to tithe out of the goodness of their hearts? I guess the better question would be shouldn’t they still want to give out of the goodness of their hearts? Wouldn’t that be closer to what God would want.
Having people give out of the expectation that they will get something tangible in return is like giving a birthday present to someone on the condition that they will give you something bigger and better when your birthday rolls around. That is selfish, no? I don’t see why having that same mentality with regards to tithing is any less selfish.
I see your point, but I think you’re misinterpreting the motives behind tithing.
If I was better at explaining my views on it I would be able to tell you why, but that’s not something I’m good at. I’ll have to think on it.
This is sort of tangential to the OP, but I will say that tithing (known as ‘giving money’ to those of us not so versed in traditional Christian practices) to your church helps the church to provide for you and others in your community when that help is necessary, both spiritually and monitarially.
A thriving congregation that has the financial support of its members can afford to care for members who are going through hard times. I’m an athiest and a Unitarian Universalist, and I give money to my church (not as much as I could, admittedly) because my church cares for me, and gives me something of value. That’s why we pay for anything. Tithing isn’t money going to God, it’s money going to a religious organization, and part of that organization’s mission is probably to help take care of the needs of its members. This is why tithing is important.
The idea that you’re giving money ‘to’ God is ridiculous, and I question whether there are denominations who really believe that that’s what you’re doing. Support your spiritual family and help it to thrive, and it will support you and help you to thrive; that’s how I see it.
It’s the same thing in many religious people’s minds. Giving money to the church, which is presumably dedicated to God’s work and which therefore belongs to God in a spiritual sense, if not on the accounting books, is pretty much the same as giving money to God. You’re giving money to contribute to the work of God, not to the work of the mortgage holder or Big Tobacco or Nabisco (granted, the work of God might include giving money to Nabisco; the nursery babies need their snackies…). Taking care of the community is the work of God, done through the church–if you happen to think that way. Clearly, you do not, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t a valid way to think about tithing.
Has anyone heard of double tithing, or is that just an urban legend? The meme being that a young couple with children have lost their jobs and go to their minister to explain why they will not be tithing the amount they had pledged. The minister then counsels them to double-tithe in order to hurry God’s blessing and get new jobs faster. I heard it long enough ago that I can’t remember where, but the idea really creeps me out.
Yllaria
(do not tell the lottery/tithing joke - do not tell the lottery/tithing joke - damn it’s hard! - do not tell the lottery/tithing joke)
I remember hearing The Reverend R.W. Schambach(sp?) on the radio late one night in 1966. He was a great radio preacher out of Texas, I think.
The story that night was about a couple who had driven 50 or more miles to attend his revival service. They were extremely poor, and had just enough gas in their car to return home. And they had $20 in their pocket in cash. This was the money they had to live on for the next week.
But, after hearing the word, they decided to drop the double sawbuck in the offering plate, putting their trust in whomever.
As they were leaving the service, walking to their car, an angel appeared to them and gave them back $40.
Now, all this was delivered by RW in his airwave sermon that night to me and, no doubt, thousands of his faithful. I’m sure the plates overflowed that night. Had I been there, and not in my bed at graduate school, even I might have kicked in a buck or two.
But do you really think an angel (or MIchael Anthony) was gonna show up in the next 24 hours to give me back my donation, whether with or without interest?
Yes, sort of like the “anyone who took care of those who needed it took care of me” thing that Jesus said.
See, that’s the type of thing that’s not so good. I don’t think doing it like that even counts. I doubt God blesses those who tithe only to get money. It’s not like some investment account or something.
I wanna hear the tithing/lottery joke!
No. The couple sacrificed a lot, and would have really been screwed if God didn’t help them out.
I finally have a job and got my first paycheck today. I plan on starting to tithe tomorrow. I still live with my parents and don’t need money. I doubt I’ll be getting any back from my tithes.
I’m working in the intensive care unit this month. We had one patient whose care went at least two weeks and about $15,000 into futility. He was well into his eighties and not very healthy to start with, and severe sepsis just dealt him a blow that he couldn’t handle. It was only through the ventilator, continuous hemodialysis, and healthy doses of pressors that he was staying on this side of the eternal.
His family, meanwhile, remained in profound denial, refusing to the very end to accept the fact that he was not going to make it. One daughter told us in one of the interminable family meetings, “I’ve been praying for him all this week, and I just don’t understand why he isn’t getting any better.” She said this in a very accusatory tone, as if we were standing in God’s way. In any event, it was clear that if she had been praying for a particular outcome, and she expected that the outcome would be delivered as requested.
IIRC, there is a verse in the Bible stating that if two or more people ask for something, it will not be denied, so it isn’t like she’s out to lunch completely.
All this is just to add to the argument that some people expect prayer and tithing to pay off not just in an esoteric or spiritual way, but directly and physically.
When I was younger and wanted to be a better Christian, I tried watching lots of “Christian television” :rolleyes:
There were plenty of, I’ll call them commercials, and pledge drives where they’d show someone telling about how they sent in their last penny, and then later got twice that amount or so back. That really p*ssed me off. For one thing, I’d say that 99% of televangelists are money grubbing frauds, and I felt bad for any of the people who would watch and then send in money they needed to live, only to find out that no, they won’t be getting it back.
Also, messages like that make it sound like the reason to give is that you’ll get something back, instead of giving simply because it’s a good thing to do. God want’s Altruism, and giving only because you think that you’ll get back what you gave, or double, or whatever, isn’t being altruistic.
I get your point, and I understand that, but since in most denominations folks don’t believe their ministers/pastors/whomever are actually divine, the church ‘doing the work of God’ is a bit more metaphorical than literal, is all I’m saying.
To a certain extent (especially as practiced by the LDS as I understand it - and forgive me if I don’t understand it or if you find this analogy offensive, Dangermom) tithing seems like taxes. You give a certain percentage to your community (religious or secular) and they in turn do “good works” with it according to their priorities (which, in both cases, may not be your priorities - but that’s part of being in a heirarchial community).
I get that.
I don’t get (and find offensive) the people who expect reward - particularly financial earthly reward - for this behavior. Tithing does not seem like the most effective investment strategy - and yet I was recently exposed to it as such. (To Inigo’s point - it may actually be a decent “budget” strategy - in the in order to tithe most people are going to need to be able to pay attention to their money. And it does help curb rampant materialism, in its pure form). The case that triggered this question was a woman who was tithing under the belief that she would be rewarded with a raise (or some other monetary windfall) and this was her savings plan for getting on a cruise ship.
I had the same reaction, and was vindictively pleased when a few years ago, some of these guys were being investigated and sent to jail. They reminded me of the Bible warnings about false prophets and wolves in sheep’s clothing. There is nothing wrong with donating or tithing per se. There is something very wrong when The Man With The Diamond Ring is taking someone’s last penny or entire life savings. There is a parable in which a rich person donates a lot of money in order to feel important and righteous. Then there is a poor person who only gives a penny (or the equivalent). The poor person gets the recognition. He’s still poor, but then he was not expecting to gain anything. It’s all about the intent. Unfortunately, there are a lot of con men out there with the diamond ring, who enrich themselves on the good intentions or gullibility of others.
Jew weighing in here. Maimonides, along with the other great sages, advises giving to charity anonymously. This prevents the act from becoming one of vanity ‘Wow! Look at this massive check from Glassman! What a great, generous guy he is!’ Charity given in expectation of reward is not charity. OTTOMH, I can’t remember ever being taught that charity brought earthly reward. Charity and other good deeds could bring heavenly rewards. But that’s it.
Re charity
A bone to the dog is not charity. Charity is the bone shared with the dog, when you are just as hungry as the dog. -Jack London
This is pretty much the spin put on it by a buddy of mine who is a regular churchgoer. The surrogate family thing. He tithes regularly and in ways its expected that if he finds himself truly in a bad bad place, that the church will help out with some groceries, or cover a bill or something.
From the LDS perspective, it could indeed be compared with a tax, albeit a voluntary one. (We also have other voluntary funds aside from tithing for specific purposes, if people want to support certain endeavors–so personal priorities can also be indulged.)
Your case is a bit strange IMO. Again from the LDS perspective, tithing does come with blessings attached. Those may be spiritual or temporal, depending on the need; after all, many people have enough money, but need spiritual blessings. Or people might be blessed to find a job they need, or be put in a position to help someone else. I would not expect an exact specific return on tithing; I doubt that many would.
But the main financial blessing, according to most Mormons, is that you will get along OK and survive. Riches are not an automatic result of tithing, nor are vacations, fancy cars, or other nice things. Tithing will not cure your problems if you’re not handling what you have properly and are careening into heavy debt through unnecessary careless spending. But if you’re doing your best and tithing with a sincere heart, then we think you’ll get along OK–though you might need help, the help will be there. Things might be very tight, but you’ll survive.
Your story is familiar to me because my husband has experienced the same thing over and over, to the point where I no longer stress myself out about what we’ll do to get through a tight spot because I know that he will miraculously get what he needs right in the nick of time.
For instance, things were so tight once upon a time that he was listing things on eBay to get some extra cash. He had two manuals for an ancient computer and he didn’t have the computer, so he listed them for 50 cents. They sold for over $500! Unbelievable! Another time he remarked that we were going to struggle to make it to payday - then what should arrive in the mail but a cheque for several hundred dollars from a former employer over the sale of shares he didn’t even know he owned! There have been so many occasions when money has just fallen in his lap right when he needs it that I almost cease to be surprised.
That’s the other part I don’t get. As I said before, in my experience, money tends to fall from the sky (not literally) and I’m not much of a believer. Whenever these discussions come up, you hear about someone who tithed and then got windfalls, like the two are related events. But I don’t know if windfalls come to tithers more than believers, and believers more than non-believers. In my rather limited experience, they don’t and the skeptic in me doubts they do. I’m frustrated by the causal nature people insist on giving the two - in the same way I’m annoyed when I get chain letters to “avoid bad luck.”
