Tithing Is Unscriptural

Great Debates
1

http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html
Like a good number of other members of this forum, I’ve been self-studying religion. I found the above link while searching for a skeptics view of tithing.
First of all, let me say that I really don’t have a concrete opinion on whether or not I completely agree with this guy. His name is L. Ray Smith and I couldn’t find anything else written about him anywhere else on the internet. Anyway, here’s an excerpt:

He goes on to list all mentions of tithing in the bible. Anyway, here’s the gist of what he’s saying: Nobody alive today, according to scrupture, qualifies for tithing. I searched for opposing views but really didn’t find any. That is, no one specifically addressing these claims. That’s where you folks (hopefully) come in:)…

If people wouldn’t mind checking out the link I would appreciate it. Or, If one of you members that is really sharp on religion could just tell me if this guy’s a nut or does he have a legitimate case?
I know, this is more of a question than a debate. But its about religion and rules are rules.

2

“7Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” --2 Cor. 9:7

In my church (can’t speak for any others), tithing is used as a baseline. If one is not sure what to give, then 10% is sort of a benchmark amount. However, the important thing is to decide on an amount and give it, whether it be 5%, 10%, or 50% of one’s income. IOW, what is important is pledging to an amount and giving it, not giving 10% no more no less.

As for the remarks in the article, most of them seem to apply to Jews, not Christians. If there were still Levites to tithe to, I don’t think Christians would be doing so today. I do agree with him about televangelists; it is absurd and borderline fraudulent to suggest that one will get out of debt by giving money to some man on TV.

3

BZZZT! Sorry, thanks for playing…

There were several gifts that had to be given from agriculture in the Holy Land during Biblical times. The potential recipients of these tithes are alive and well today.

The “tithes” that were given were:

Terumah (Priestly gift). The first 2% of the crop was given to the kohen. Since there are plenty of kohanim alive today, they can certainly receive this gift. (Since, however, we are all in a state of tumah (ritual impurity), a kohen today cannot eat terumah that is seperated today.)

Ma’aser Rishon (First Tithe). 10% of the (remaining) crop was given to the Levites. Since there are many Levites today, the author of the piece is wrong again.

Ma’aser Sheini (Second Tithe) 10% of the (remaining) crop. Given in the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th year of the seven year cycle. This tithe was taken by the owners to Jerusalem and eaten there. Since the owner himself was the recipent, I’d say there are plenty of potential tithe-recipients available.

Ma’aser Ani (Poor Person’s Tithe) 10% of the (remaining) crop. Given in the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th year of the seven year cycle. This tithe was taken by the owners and given to the poor. Since there are plenty of poor people around today, the author is again wrong.

And this is leaving behind the obligations of leket, shic’cha and peah which are all gifts given to the poor.

So, in short, the author’s claim that no one alive today can receive tithes is completely wrong.

Zev Steinhardt

4

Abraham tithed. He wasn’t under the law.
For the NT, I think these passages are relevant:

(1 Cor 16:1 KJV) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

(1 Cor 16:2 KJV) Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

(2 Cor 9:6 KJV) But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

(2 Cor 9:7 KJV) Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
tithing

5

Jersey, not to provoke an argument but out of sheer curiosity, is there reason to presume that Paul’s references to giving in the New Testament presuppose tithing specifically? I know that the call to tithe dates way back to early Church times, but I don’t know of Scriptural justification for it, and was hoping you could furnish some if it does exist. :slight_smile:

6

Thanks for the replies.
zev_steinhardt, Are you suggesting that tithing is not monetary?

Actually, the question I should have asked is this:
Do Christian ministers have a scriptural right to ask (demand, in many instances) 10% of church members income? Does the Bible really back that up? I know that is a different question than what I originally posted-I forgot about the Jewish POV . I apologize for that.

*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond *

Now this is where I’m confused. The OT mentions Abraham tithing to Melchisedec. But where does it say he gave from his personal possessions?

If I were a Christian and ransacked, say, Belize, I could see where the OT might be saying I should give part of the loot to my local priest.

All talk of giving, indeed. But back to my (new & improved)question:
My Grandparents belong to a Baptist Church that requires 10% (no tithe, no service for you). My Uncle goes to a Pentacostal church with similar expectations (not quite as strict on it he says).
The last church service I ever attended (Easter 1998) was a Baptist Church that I went to with my old boss-same senario. I see no mention of tithing in the bible that would lead me to believe a person is required to give 10% of his/her annual income.
I guess there’s a reason the Powers That Be put religious topics in GD.:smiley:

7

First off, this is a GREAT resource for all things scriptural:

<URL>http://www.unboundbible.com/</URL>

Remembering that my pastor said that this is the only time God says to test him in something, I did a search on the words “test me” and this quote from Malachi came up.

Malachi 3:8
"Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, ‘How have we robbed You?’ In tithes and offerings.

Malachi 3:9
"You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!

Malachi 3:10
“Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.

Also, if you would like, do a search from the site on “first fruits”. It also produces a number of relevant passages.

Tithing is an acknowledgement that all you have is from God. If you truly believe this, then you will cheerfully give to the body at which you worship. Christ wanted us to be a community of worshippers and servants.Since I am a member of a church, I have some say as to where my tithe goes. I can designate it to be spent only on certain ministries. Or, I can give it to the “general fund” of the church. As a memeber I still have influence and knowledge of how the church spends the money it receives. When you get into sending money in to televangelists on TV, things change. I am not sure how they are held accountable, or if you would ever know what happened with your money. When you are an active member of a community, you can at least keep an eye on the $$ to see that it is not misused.

Interestingly enough, I did another search on"ten percent" and “first ten” and nothing came up. Not sure how we got the 10% deal…?

8

I would love to hear your grandparents’ pastor give the biblical basis for denying admittance to the church for those who haven’t paid. This seems to me a direct contradiction of 2 Cor 9:7 that commands that we are not to give out of compulsion.

My church takes a different approach. The church encourages members (they specifically tell visitors that they are not expected to give anything) to agree to give at least 10% for 90 days. If after that 90 days, a person feels that the giving created a financial hardship or that they did not receive a blessing from God as He promised He would give in Malachi 3:10, then they will give all the money back, no questions asked. They also make clear that if people think it is a trick to get them to give, then they are free to give to another ministry or local church in the area instead. The point of giving is not that God needs our money, but that we need to avoid materialism. You cannot serve God and money.

The tithe was a matter of law, and many people therefore believe that since Jesus fulfilled the law, we are not obligated to tithe. I happen to be one of them. If that is true, however, what are we obligated to do? As always seems to be the case, I think Jesus raised the bar.

2 Corinthians 8
9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ: although He was rich, for your sake He became poor, so that by His poverty you might become rich.

Matthew 5
40 As for the one who wants to sue you and take away your shirt, let him have your coat as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and don’t turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Luke 3
10 “What then should we do?” the crowds were asking him. 11 He replied to them, “The one who has two shirts must share with someone who has none, and the one who has food must do the same.”

Matthew 19
21 “If you want to be perfect,” Jesus said to him, “go, sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.” 22 When the young man heard that command, he went away grieving, because he had many possessions.

I personally believe that we are to give out of love, not just a set amount.

Luke 11
42 "But woe to you Pharisees! You give a tenth of mint, rue, and every kind of herb, and you bypass justice and love for God. These things you should have done without neglecting the others.

1 Corinthians 13
3 And if I donate all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
In return, God gives to us by the standard that we choose to give. I think that what God gives is not necessarily material, but spirtual, as well.

Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you; a good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be poured into your lap. For with the measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."

2 Corinthians 9
6 Remember this: the person who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and the person who sows generously will also reap generously.
Televangelists who beg for money are charlatains. I prefer the approach Paul took:

Acts 20
33 I have not coveted anyone’s silver or gold or clothing. 34 You yourselves know that these hands have provided for my needs, and for those who were with me. 35 In every way I’ve shown you that by laboring like this, it is necessary to help the weak and to keep in mind the words of the Lord Jesus, for He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ "

My bottom line thoughts on giving are that we are required to give out of love (which will invariably be more extravagant than what the law required) and that the amount will always be such that it breaks the hold of materialism in our lives. For some that amount will be more than others.

9

Just for the record, how would such a church know if you were giving 10% or not? Are you required to submit tax form 1040? Do they get direct deposit from you employer? Notarized affidavits? I’m not cracking wise here, I’m just wondering about the mechanics of it…

10

One thing I’ve always wondered: Is the 10% before or after taxes? I’m afraid to ask it in church cause it’s a bit silly and nitpicky, but I know you guys don’t mind nitpicky questions.

11

I’m not implying that this is standard practice, but giving 10% is quite a serious deal to many (most?)fundamentalist churches here in the Bible Belt. I was using the no-tithe-no-entrance rule as an example of the extent some preachers are willing to hold to the concept of giving them 10%. If you don’t think some churches are that serious about tithing, come on down to Arkansas and let me introduce you to a few Men Of God. I supppose My idea of tithing (and Christianity) is tainted by my geographic location. Fundamentalism is the norm down here.

And since a couple of you are suprised by my Grandparents church, you’ll love this one:
Same Baptist Church, about two years ago. The congregation actually voted in favor of parading a 15 year-old girl to the front of the church to confess hears sins to the church and god. Her sin? She got pregnant. FTR, I do believe my grandparents voted against the idea, but they still thought that it was right in the eyes of the lord.

12

hears???
The congregation actually voted in favor of parading a 15 year-old girl to the front of the church to confess her sins to the church and god.

13

FTR record, My Grandmother just told me that they go off the honor system. So I guess you only get booted from church by not giving 10% and telling the truth about it. And 10% down here is usually after taxes, from what I’ve seen. But I’ve never heard anyone mention it either.

14

Hi, Poly.
If you take the definition of what tithing is, and put it in relation to what Paul says, it would appear to fit. We are to give as we are blessed - which implies proportionality.
In 1 Cor 9:11 and on, it speaks about supporting those who teach.
In Gal 6:6, it talk about how we should pay the preachers the word of God.
In 1 Timothy 5:17, it talks about how the elders should be paid.
Now, one of the definitions of tithing is:
“A tenth part of one’s annual income contributed voluntarily or due as a tax, especially for the support of the clergy or church.” What do you think, Poly?

I don’t think tithing has to mean money all the time. My reason for this is because of the references made about tithing in the OT. It speaks of tithing herds and flocks, and tithing of the land. I don’t know about you, but I don’t have herds and flocks to give, :smiley: but we can give the first tenth our time, effort, support, and food. Along with giving the first tenth of our money.

davidw, tithing is before taxes. Anything after would not be the first, right?

Paul tells the Corinthians that everyone should set aside money, on the first day of every week, so a collection could be taken to help the saints in Jerusalem.
In 2 Corinthians 8, Paul tells how the Macedonians gave more that a lot, and they were very poor. They were joyous in giving and found it to be a privilege.

I was looking here, and it gave a few examples of what tithing is. May or may not be helpful. :slight_smile:

Howard Juneau, I think they go by good faith. I have never been to a church that demanded to see a bank statement or your paystub. I would think if that were the case, the church would be more interested in money than anything. Tithing has to be voluntary. If you do it because you think you will be kicked out of your church, what good is it to God. That would mean that you are doing it because you want to be a part of that church and not because you want to give to God. God loves a cheerful giver. If I don’t want to give but I do, I would feel as though I were as bad as Cain.

caracal, what do you think a tithe is? I cannot tithe from your possessions, can I? You can only give what is yours. Anything else would be stealing, right? His spoils of war became his personal property and his income, and he gave the first tenth of it.

15

I see what you are saying, but I don’t see how the Bible says Araham tithed regulary like many Christians claim. He tithed the spoils of war. Roman Generals did pretty much the same thing. Heck, conquerers throughout ancient history did this. Not with their respective gods, maybe. But certainly conquerers gave part of the loot to their own leaders. How is this passage different? I am not disagreeing that the Bible says to tithe. Zev and the other Dopers that have been kind enough to answer here pretty much set me straight on that one. But here in the South the fundamentalist ministers swear that the bible says to give 10% annually. I say that is nothing but a scam. My mother is a Catholic, and her church agrees with you. Just giving 10% of yourself, however you can, is tithing. I now agree that it does indeed say that in the bible.
I’ll refine my questions another way:
Say a class-action lawsuit was brought upon leaders of the Fundamentalist churches. Now, I don’t know if the Bible is admissable evidence in court (there’s a GQ). But say these leaders had to prove in a court of law that they are given divine right to require 10% of your annual income. How how they do it?

16

Well, I can’t speak for the "fundamentalist ministers, " but I should point out that there is, in Judaism, the concept to give 10% of your income to charity. It does not have to be your local synagouge, but could be any charity. While the commandment to give charity is Scriptural, the specific amount to give to charity is not (at least not in the Pentatuch).

Zev Steinhardt

17

My pastor used to chuckle and say “depends on if you want gross or net blessings…”

If you are going by 10% I would say it would be before taxes…but that is just my WAG.