I don’t quite remember how the rules worked in the time between Adam’s exit of the Garden of Eden and the establishment of the Tribes of Israel. I believe some things were still done in same way I described in my last post: sacrifices were made to God for forgiveness. But, in Adam’s time, nobody was designated as “chosen”. That comes later.
Lineages did fall out of favor with God. For example, in the story of Cain and Abel, which centers around a sacrificial dispute, Cain’s angers God and his offspring become the first “unchosen” people. Later in Genesis, Esau’s offspring and Ishamel’s offspring become “unchosen”.
God finally “chooses” His people in Genesis 12. He tells Abraham that He will bless his offspring and make them into a great nation. Abraham’s grandson Jacob (AKA Israel) has twelve sons who go on to form the Twelve Tribes of Israel. This begins the Old Covenant.
TLDR: Adam and Eve’s offspring were not born “chosen” because there was no out-group with which to define “chosen” against; nobody else existed.
How did the rules work? Not very well apparently, since God wiped almost everyone out and started over again. Including all of Cain’s descendants, apparently, though we don’t know the birthline of Mrs. Noah and Mrs. Noah’s sons.
And as you mention we have the Simon Legree figure sending the young unwed mother and baby out into the snow, uh, desert - but Simon is the good guy here.
You do realize that there should be no reason for an all knowing being to test anything…he should know the outcome before it happens, like a person who touches a red hot iron knows he will be burned; that is if he has his right mind!
Yes, but *Satan *doesn’t know that. And, maybe, with only a few more millenia of being allowed to destroy people’s lives, Satan might just realize that he can’t win, ask forgiveness for that whole prideful rebellion thing, and go back to leading the choir in Paradise.
It makes one wonder why a being that is all powerful and loving, would allow a monster he created, and knew would turn evil and harm what are called his children, then wait an eternity to change the monster, after he did so much damage.If the being knew the results a head of time there would be no reason to test a reaction, or deed. Just as in Job’s position, why God would need to prove anything to a lower entity. It would suggest the being is not all knowing or loving.
I’m not sure on the details, as I was just making that up in an attempt to channel kanicbird, who seems to subscribe to some sort of mainchean duality wherein Satan is co-powerful with YHWH in the physical realm. Or something
Be that as it may, I can continue down that road. Satan is, as we all know, the fallen aspect of Lucifer, who was the brightest and best-loved of the angelic host. He was, most likely, the first being created by God (as opposed to the other persons of the Trinity, who are/were simulatneously self-created) and therefore shares a greater affinity with the Godhead than any other entity.
Now, as an analogy, sometimes you need to allow your offspring a little time to run wild, blow off some destructive metaphorical steam, before he settles down and realizes his father wasn’t always wrong about everything. Sometimes that hurts others, and a parent can only hope to mitigate the damage and pay bail. But eventually, the firstborn will grow up, and return to the family a wiser person.
Sucks to be the collateral damage in a family dispute, but it will all work out for the best in the end.
Just a quick thought…as Abraham was BEFORE Moses Genesis 22:1-14, Moses Exodus 20: 1-17, I suspect that Abraham did not have to worry about breaking these commandments.
Actually, Abram didn’t send her anywhere. Hagar leaves of her own volition once she realized Abram got her pregnant, because of drama that caused between her and Abram’s psycho wife, Sarai. Sarai, thinking that she was too old to have her own kids, asked Abram to knock up Hagar, then got jealous once he did and mistreated Hagar.
BTW, what horrible things has Satan actually done? (Besides fiddle contests in Georgia, I mean.) He tempted Jesus, but drill sergeants do worse for the good of the recruits. He supposedly caused Judas to betray Jesus, but that led directly to the supposed redemption of mankind. He was nowhere near Eden - saying he was is total retconning.
God on the other hand killed nearly all the people on the earth, ordered genocide of tribes in the way, and doesn’t want me to eat lobster.
Satan seems to win this contest.
Being that I am just a human parent, that doesn’t, or didn’t know for certain what would be good for my children or not, I was not able to be as good a parent as I could have been if I was all knowing. Now they are grown and tell me i was a good parent,but if I could have known the future I could have been better. I tried never to give, or do anything I thought was bad for them, nor give them anything that I felt would be harmful to them, so i would expect a Supreme Being who is said to know all things past, present, and future would do better than me, or my husband.Nor would either of us allow a creature we could control harm our child. It is a whole different ball game with a human parent than a all knowing ,all loving being. I would not allow evil to exist, to allow it then see if my child would would do evil, to me, is not a very good parent.
Why Satan would rebel, when everthing was suppose to be great in heaven,and was supposed to have been created perfect, is contradictory as I see, or understand it!
Oh, I understand now. You believe that the unfolding of Creation is for the benefit of human souls, instead of all this being part of the reform process for Lucifer. Lucifer is the “Prodigal Son” who needs to rebel before returning, (just as Jesus is the son in the story who stayed home and obeyed His Father, but who never gets a picnic). The well-being of humans is of secondary or even tertiary concern to the Godhead; whose goal is reconciliation with His first-created.
But when discussing Satan that assumes Satan is evil, which has been asserted but not demonstrated. If there was a battle between Good and Evil in heaven, the evidence seems to show that Evil won.
That’s remarkably pretty! One could almost admire God, in that view…
DrFidelius’s idea is similar to one a Russian novelist (I do not know who) came up with: it’s a drama. God is the author of the novel. Jesus is the protagonist of the novel. The Holy Spirit is the sense of identification that the author has for the protagonist. (Yeah, it’s a “Mary Sue” novel. So it goes.)
Without evil, the novel would be dull. Where is Star Wars without Darth Vader? Evil was necessary for the purposes of the plot.
God does horrible things to Jesus, in the same way that George Lucas did horrible things to Luke Skywalker. And God does horrible things to us the same way George Lucas wiped out Alderaan. It really sucks if you happen to be a little kid on Alderaan just playing with your first bicycle. But it makes the story better.
This is why the agony of the crucifixion was necessary. Sure, God could have waved an arm and said, “Sins are all now forgiven.” George Lucas could have said, “Obi Wan Kenobi uses The Force to turn Darth Vader back to the bright side.” In both cases, the story is over, a lot of fuss is avoided…but it isn’t interesting any more.
The worst part of this idea is that it eliminates free will, and reduces us, not merely to minor characters, but to stage properties. It takes us out of the drama entirely. Pharaoh doesn’t refuse to let Moses go; God reaches out, hardens Pharaoh’s heart, puts the words in his mouth, and runs the show like a marionette production.
Most of us play with toys…but we don’t make them conscious and self-aware when we pretend that they fight, or get hurt, or die.
(Or…does the mere act of playing with a toy cause it to have self-awareness? Just ask Buzz Lightyear…)
