[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]
How common, in your world view, do such situations (confrontations…sometimes unreasonable or hostile…based on misinterpretation/misunderstandings involving gender) have to become until you would be comfortable with society needing to revisit gender norms?
[/QUOTE]
About 1,000 times as common as they are now. Do you really disagree with CarnalK? If so, I think you need to mingle out in society a little more. And I don’t mean The Castro.
Yes, I really disagree. And I do not live my life within an accepting environment bubble.
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]
Yes, I really disagree. And I do not live my life within an accepting environment bubble.
[/QUOTE]
Then how can you disagree with CarnalK’s point? When you’re out in the world, how many people do you see deviating from sexual norms in their attire? I see it very, very infrequently. In fact, I still remember the one guy who worked at a company that I was at who wore a dress every day. He was not tryig to be feminine in any other way, it just appeared that he liked dresses. Now good for him, but there was no way it wasn’t a “holy shit, did you see that guy?..” kind of thing wherever he went. The point is that it is very rare—no the norm. It effects relatively, very few people, and it is a matter of choice. So, no one is up in arms about this except a handful of people.
May I suggest a simple strand of pearls, a little pink lace at the neck and cuffs, or, of course, just chillin’ out a bit?
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Well, not only you. But yeah, you. Which you should know already because I quoted you when I posted that. AND you responded to it, using those very words (posts #67 and #69). All of which makes me want to remind you of my suggestion: ease the fuck up!
Sheesh.
[/QUOTE]
I would say I’m being included, as well. Although, at 5’4, I usually get mistaken for a teenage boy, not a man.
I’ve noticed that the posters who believe that women should look like stereotypical women or be persecuted have not posted locations. I have a feeling you don’t live anywhere near a big city that might be friendly towards gays, anywhere near a midwestern farming community, anywhere near a ranching community, or anywhere near a feminist community.
There are a whole lot of women that don’t fit your ideals of what a woman should look like - and most of them probably (although I don’t have a cite, I’m making a pretty sure bet) don’t feel that somebody should have the right to kick them out of a restaurant because they don’t look right.
Please don’t tell us to “ease up”. Unless you are the one being endangered, please don’t tell me what to fear. I see the world as inching inexorably toward less and less freedoms of personal expression, I’d rather stand up and stop it now, than wonder what the hell happened as I’m told I must wear a dress and makeup in public.
And yes, I’ve already heard you, in my head, saying something to the effect of “making a mountain out of a molehill” blahblahblah “getting all up in arms over nothing” blahblahblah “ease up” blahblahblah. I’m not going to. I’ve fought for equal rights for everybody, and I’m not going to quit now.
He lives in San Francisco, IIRC.
edited: sorry, double post.
[QUOTE=Miller]
He lives in San Francisco, IIRC.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, now that is scary.
Does it ever occur to you, magellan01, that maybe a lot of the people you are assuming to be male are actually female? Because I know quite a few women in San Fran who probably don’t fit your gender role ideas…
[QUOTE=Fetchund]
I’ve noticed that the posters who believe that women should look like stereotypical women or be persecuted have not posted locations. I have a feeling you don’t live anywhere near a big city that might be friendly towards gays, anywhere near a midwestern farming community, anywhere near a ranching community, or anywhere near a feminist community.
[/QUOTE]
That’s your own bigotry speaking. What’s wrong with people who don’t live near a big city? Are they (automatically) stupid?
And what the hell is a “feminist community”?
More than 1.1 %, on a quick think through. How about you?
I should add that I’ve met bald women, both d/t cancer treatments and personal choices, and it was still pretty clear they were women. Your examples really don’t touch on “women looking like men”, IMHO.
[QUOTE=Miller]
He lives in San Francisco, IIRC.
[/QUOTE]
He also didn’t say women should look traditional or else should be persecuted, either, but hey let’s not quibble on details.
[QUOTE=CarnalK]
More than 1.1 %, on a quick think through. How about you?
I should add that I’ve met bald women, both d/t cancer treatments and personal choices, and it was still pretty clear they were women. Your examples really don’t touch on “women looking like men”, IMHO.
[/QUOTE]
Your humble opinion doesn’t carry much weight with me, and I’m quite sure the feeling is mutual.
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]
Your humble opinion doesn’t carry much weight with me, and I’m quite sure the feeling is mutual.
[/QUOTE]
All I I said is I’ve met some bald women and I don’t think it’s particularly pertinent to this conversation - I had no problem recognizing them as women. You can doubt my opinion all you like but I can’t see where I’ve made any derogatory marks towards you or your opinion so I’m not sure what you’re basing the second bit on.
You could still give an answer to my “How about you?”. I did answer you and all.
You’ve already dismissed my opinion on more than one occasion, which is why I drew the conclusion that it doesn’t carry much weight with you. I didn’t say that I don’t respect your opinion, I said that your opinion does nothing to change mine, and I still suspect that the feeling is mutual.
I figured that my answer to your question was already quite obvious. I’m already unsatisfied with many of the “gender norms” that are currently prevalent in society, regardless of however small the segment of the population might be that does not subscribe to them, which is why I choose not to subscribe to them. I dress and act in ways that are true to myself first and foremost, with no regard to what anyone else is expecting or comfortable with. I support the idea that everyone should be free to do so without it causing them to being treated like a second class citizen. I do this while obeying (most) laws. I pay my taxes. I go to work and do a good job. I have friends across multiple walks of life. I love and live with my partner monogamously. I have a good relationship with my family and her’s.
I find it frankly absurd and disturbing that we as a society are having some of same debates, with the same language, fallacies, and willful ignorance as have occured during the (still ongoing) paradigm shifts of civil rights and women’s rights.
You are being ridiculous. I never dismissed your opinion and no one here has disputed your right to dress and act as you feel, nor deny you access to the washroom you know is appropriate. This is about whether some new enshrinement of civil rights will come out of this case or if it’s just a money/publicity grab. I personally do not see a Jim Crow here.
I have a feeling the reason you are finding absurd repeats of old debates is because you have a favorite enemies soundtrack that you are playing over my comments.*
*eta: though I guess that was me dismissing your opinion.
[QUOTE=Fetchund]
I would say I’m being included, as well. Although, at 5’4, I usually get mistaken for a teenage boy, not a man.
[/QUOTE]
Are you self-mportant and think 99.9999% of society should unlearn what they’ve come to accept as what garb is assocaited with males and which is associated with females, just on the chance that you one day might be offended because you choose to not accept the norms of the society you live in—and like to whine about it? Then, yes, consider yourself included. See, I’m all about inclusion.
[QUOTE=Fetchund]
I’ve noticed that the posters who believe that women should look like stereotypical women or be persecuted have not posted locations. I have a feeling you don’t live anywhere near a big city that might be friendly towards gays, anywhere near a midwestern farming community, anywhere near a ranching community, or anywhere near a feminist community.
[/QUOTE]
As has been pointed out, I live in San Francisco. Have lived in Manhattan and right next to the Oak Lawn area in Dallas, which is quite fabulous in its own right. So, you’d be just slightly wrong here, wouldn’t you?
[QUOTE=Fetchund]
There are a whole lot of women that don’t fit your ideals of what a woman should look like -
[/QUOTE]
That’s why God gave us plastic surgeons. 
[QUOTE=Fetchund]
…and most of them probably (although I don’t have a cite, I’m making a pretty sure bet) don’t feel that somebody should have the right to kick them out of a restaurant because they don’t look right.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t know who holds this opinion, I’ve said that I think the bouncer, after the initial encounter, fucked up.
[QUOTE=Fetchund]
Please don’t tell us to “ease up”. Unless you are the one being endangered, please don’t tell me what to fear. I see the world as inching inexorably toward less and less freedoms of personal expression, I’d rather stand up and stop it now, than wonder what the hell happened as I’m told I must wear a dress and makeup in public.
[/QUOTE]
You’ve got to be kidding. At what point has there been more freedom? And look, if you choose to shun every tiny thing that might be associated with being female, I think you should straighten out your own issues before you start telling the world what to do. If you detest those cues so much, fine, don’t wear them. But stop whining about it. It’s a very female thing to do, you know.
[QUOTE=Fetchund]
And yes, I’ve already heard you, in my head, saying something to the effect of “making a mountain out of a molehill” blahblahblah “getting all up in arms over nothing” blahblahblah “ease up” blahblahblah.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, you saved me some typing. Thanks.
[QUOTE=Fetchund]
Oh, now that is scary.
[/QUOTE]
Really? Why?
[QUOTE=Fetchund]
Does it ever occur to you, magellan01, that maybe a lot of the people you are assuming to be male are actually female? Because I know quite a few women in San Fran who probably don’t fit your gender role ideas…
[/QUOTE]
That’s fine. But if they start that girly whining thing about being mistaken for a man, theb=n I reserve the right to tell them “Would you knidly shut your yap, bitch.” Or should that be “Would you kindly shut your yap, sir”? Can you help me out here? I wouldn’t want to offend anyone.
[QUOTE=CarnalK]
He also didn’t say women should look traditional or else should be persecuted, either, but hey let’s not quibble on details.
[/QUOTE]
“Thank you” to you and Miller.
[QUOTE=treis]
The entire system is not going to change for a tiny fraction of people at the detriment of almost everyone else … she should be scorned as the menace she is.
[/QUOTE]
This is way back from the first page but I haven’t seen it addressed.
What’s the detriment?
Why is she a menace?
Where was she supposed to pee? The mens room?
What are the arguments against people using the “wrong” bathroom for their apparent gender (as determined by bouncers), other than “It’s different from what I’m used to, and therefore scary,” or uncited assertions that “Most people feel the way I do”?
This is not a rhetorical question. treis, magellan, how about it? You are arguing quite passionately in favour of the status quo, in the face of very good reasons for reform. What are your counter-arguments, other than tradition? I’m particularly interested in the public opinion research to support your position that the overwhelming majority share your point of view, followed by arguments about why popular opinion should in this case be permitted to override the rights of people to pee, regardless of their gender presentation.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
That’s fine. But if they start that girly whining thing about being mistaken for a man, theb=n I reserve the right to tell them “Would you knidly shut your yap, bitch.” Or should that be “Would you kindly shut your yap, sir”? Can you help me out here? I wouldn’t want to offend anyone.
[/QUOTE]
Nice. It’s comments like this and the plastic surgery joke, emoticons or no, that make this an issue. It’s almost as if women who don’t play along and at least try to make themselves pretty to look at shouldn’t get a voice. Wow, just this entire post. 99.9999% of society? Which society? Which decade?
And as Fetchund mentioned (though most posters seemed to have missed half the post), this isn’t just a city/country thing. There are plenty of female ranchers, lesbian and straight, who’d rather be comfortable and safe while branding cattle, even if it means foregoing heels and a pink slicker. Don’t see why they should then ‘expect’ to be discriminated against.
Not that I have a dog in the fight really, but this is what I’ve gleaned so far…
Ms. Farmer got the boot from a ladies washroom in a bar in NYC (and in a big city too, hmm :dubious: ) because she looked like a dude. Further, the bouncer who bounced her, refused to look at her ID, and, well, threw her out.
CTTDSWHC takes extreme umbrage at the fact, and argues that the “gender norms” in society are the problem, and that Ms. Farmer should sue the knickers off the bar because you shouldn’t have to look like a woman to use the ladies pisser.
Some are upset that the bouncer “should have known” about butch lesbians, and whatnot, working in the Village and all.
I think that about covers it…
OK, so the bouncer COULD have looked at the ID, but, amusingly enough, he’s not REQUIRED to, because as wendigo1974 has pointed out…
As a society, we have accepted the upending of our previous ‘norms’ to accept an ever-widening circle of what we are supposed to consider to be ‘normal’ or at least socially acceptable. What we haven’t done is taken into account every single possibility and permutation of the human condition and enact a societal rule on it. Nor should we. Without these much maligned ‘norms’ we would be in a constant struggle to define ourselves and the subsects of our culture(s).
Like it or not, humans enjoy having a comfortable role to play. It makes life easier and arguably better, when you can “be” something, know the parameters of what that something is, and live within them.
Of course, there are those of us who like to challenge those norms, which, while perfectly ok, ironically enough, is simply the playing of yet another societal role.
You can pierce, tattoo yourself and otherwise mutilate yourself.
You can love members of the same sex, the opposite sex, both sexes, or a combination thereof.
You can hang yourself upside down to sleep at night, wear white make-up and drink blood from a chalice.
You can, as a woman (or womyn, as the case may be) shave your head and wear what the majority of society considers to be mens’ clothes.
You can, as a man, grow your hair long, and wear what the majority of society considers to be womens’ clothes.
What you CAN’T do, is expect the majority of society to accept YOU when you fail to fall within the parameters of what THEY consider normal, when YOU are doing what you can to set yourself apart, which then is challenging THEIR norms.
forinstance:
I take a risk wearing a kilt in public. I do it because I like the kilt, it’s comfortable, and I know it’s going to create a stir where ever I go. In fact, It created such a stir the one night, me in my Kilt, leaving a bar on Clark street, I had the power to stop a tour bus from Iowa in the middle of the street, wherein most, if not all of the tourists flooded to one side of the bus, and took pictures of the 6’4" 300# guy with blue hair in a skirt.
I’m proud of that, because I made some people think, but I know damn well they wouldn’t want me at their dinner table, nor would I likely want them at mine, because we’re from two different parts of society.
You defy what the majority considers ‘normal’ because it is in your nature to do that, what you cannot, and I believe should not do is condemn the majority because who you are does not fit with who they are. You choose, in many cases, what route your path will take, if you choose to go a different way from the herd, your choices will effect your lot in life. We’re getting closer to that not being the case legally, but I suspect it will be the case socially, almost forever, simply because people like to be safe and comfortable in the roles society sets.
The woman should be given a public apology for the insensitivity shown to her at that bar in that bathroom, a gift card for free drinks and sent on her way.
It’s a little strange that a lot of the arguments go towards the extremes. Some people seem to take the stance that looking like a female means wearing “pink shoes” and other sterotypical articles of clothing. I’m sitting in a university student center and I see both men and women dressed in jeans and t-shirts and it’s not difficult to tell boy from girl.
I think it’s pretty rare for most of us to be unable to figure out the gender of someone by observation. Despite there being no formal code of attire or behavior we can seperate the genders in ways we don’t really think about such as body language, voice, or behavior. These social cues are help determine how individuals interact with those around them and not knowing the gender, or seeing an example of atypical gender behavior, can be very confusing.
None of this makes it right to discriminate against some who does not fit to cultural norms of gender identification of course. However, and this applies to all cultural standards, if you’re not conforming to them then you shouldn’t be surprised at getting a negative reaction.
I don’t really have a dog in this race. I am sypathetic to people who are discriminated against though.
Marc